5 ms·

After Police Reform, Crime Falls in Camden, New Jersey

66 points by devy 9y ago

thanksgiving 9y ago
> It’s policing turned poetry, and his officers, too, have internalized it in their training. “The old police mantra was make it home safely,” Camden police officer Tyrell Bagby told the New York Times in April. “Now we’re being taught not only should we make it home safely, but so should the victim and the suspect.” I'm skeptical we can achieve this nationwide. Firstly, I suspect the main problem is in the commissioner's office and maybe even the mayor's office and the city council. One dead/injured cop costs $x and one dead suspect costs $y. x>>y. At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. Secondly, there are some very racist people in our society. Just because they wear a uniform and swear an oath won't change anything. Add to that the fact that we all have biases even if we think we don't. Yes, reader. You do too. We can't fix that with training. Thirdly, we are creatures of habit. You can't give a one day seminar and expect people to go yeah of course. I can't even add a new button on a form by making the old button smaller and putting a new button next to the old button on an internal app. With an organization like the police, the organization has a life and memory of its own. Newcomers will give more weight to what they learned on the job than in what they learned in training and rightly so. How do we hit the reset button? Sorry but it won't be easy. I think the first problem we need to tackle is incentives though. What motivates people to act the way they do?
- trabant00 9y ago
  Seen from outside of the US the "social studies type" is just as damaging as the racist type. Somebody makes measurable improvements to the troubled US police - public interaction and the first thing you can think of is "everybody is still racist". What is wrong with "you people"?
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Add to that the fact that we all have biases even if we think we don't. Yes, reader. You do too. We can't fix that with training. Practice acting and thinking more fairly, and you will act and think more fairly. If you can do so under the direction of someone who can see your blind spots and encourage you to start seeing them, so much the better. Try it!
- Retric 9y ago
  Often dead suspects cost multiple millions. So, it's not as clear cut as you may assume.
  - thanksgiving 9y ago
    > Often dead suspects cost multiple millions. So, it's not as clear cut as you may assume. Clearly, not often enough!
tyingq 9y ago
Have to wonder if crime really went down, or just bogus arrests went down.
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
If i where a arms-dealer protecting my trade, i would know where my next free shipment is headed.
jessaustin 9y ago
More victims are just getting to the hospital faster by calling an Uber. This seems like a real indictment of the ambulance system?
- joekrill 9y ago
  I wouldn't agree with that. First, Uber drivers are roaming the streets constantly, so it's likely there will be one within close proximity to you. Or at least much more likely than an ambulance, which are usually stationed at fixed locations (Hospitals, Fire Stations). Further, Ambulances are crazy expensive. So if it's not an absolutely critical emergency, it makes much more financial sense to just use an Uber. WAAAAYYY cheaper. Like, not even in the same ballpark cheaper. Even if you have insurance, you might have to pay a few hundred dollars co-pay for an ambulance ride. It's basically the same reason the urgent care clinics have grown so much in popularity. It used to be you either went to the ER, or waited a few days to get an appointment with your physician. Now there's an affordable middle ground that makes sense in the cases that are urgent and can't wait, but aren't life threatening in any way.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > This seems like a real indictment of the ambulance system? Not really; ambulances aren't intended to actually minimize time to physically reach the hospital, they minimize time to emergency medical attention by, in effect, bringing part of the hospital to you.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    The point in TFA was that people are living who previously would have died. If it's better to get to the hospital quickly than wait around for whatever attention the ambulance can give you, that's a mark against the entire idea of ambulances. Incidentally, sibling is right about ambulance costs. Every time I've been to the emergency room, I've taken a private vehicle to get there. In one event I was about twenty minutes from dying of internal blood loss.
teknopaul 9y ago
A murder rate of 22 per 100,000 is nothing to be proud of.
- lykr0n 9y ago
  Down from 87 per 100,000? I think it's an improvement.
RickJWagner 9y ago
“Nothing stops a bullet like a job.” I truly believe this, and I'm on the right side of the political aisle on most positions. A strong economy lifts many boats.
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  > A strong economy lifts many boats. A strong economy isn't going to get an uneducated person a job
  - ggg9990 9y ago
    Sure it will, if it is a well diversified economy.
woodandsteel 9y ago
I'm thinking it would be nice if there were a TV series based on community policing, instead of the usual that make police heros for being macho and violent.
- huebomont 9y ago
  Happy Valley
pvaldes 9y ago
> fewer officers, lower pay... There are two ways to "improve" the crime statistics. Having really a lower crime ratio is one. Stopping to count smaller crimes, discouraging people to denounce or hiding cases under the carpet instead to report it to your boss or the press is another. I'm not saying that is the case here, but this can happen.

66 points by devy 9y ago

> It’s policing turned poetry, and his officers, too, have internalized it in their training. “The old police mantra was make it home safely,” Camden police officer Tyrell Bagby told the New York Times in April. “Now we’re being taught not only should we make it home safely, but so should the victim and the suspect.” I'm skeptical we can achieve this nationwide. Firstly, I suspect the main problem is in the commissioner's office and maybe even the mayor's office and the city council. One dead/injured cop costs $x and one dead suspect costs $y. x>>y. At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. Secondly, there are some very racist people in our society. Just because they wear a uniform and swear an oath won't change anything. Add to that the fact that we all have biases even if we think we don't. Yes, reader. You do too. We can't fix that with training. Thirdly, we are creatures of habit. You can't give a one day seminar and expect people to go yeah of course. I can't even add a new button on a form by making the old button smaller and putting a new button next to the old button on an internal app. With an organization like the police, the organization has a life and memory of its own. Newcomers will give more weight to what they learned on the job than in what they learned in training and rightly so. How do we hit the reset button? Sorry but it won't be easy. I think the first problem we need to tackle is incentives though. What motivates people to act the way they do?

trabant00 9y ago
Seen from outside of the US the "social studies type" is just as damaging as the racist type. Somebody makes measurable improvements to the troubled US police - public interaction and the first thing you can think of is "everybody is still racist". What is wrong with "you people"?
jessaustin 9y ago
Add to that the fact that we all have biases even if we think we don't. Yes, reader. You do too. We can't fix that with training. Practice acting and thinking more fairly, and you will act and think more fairly. If you can do so under the direction of someone who can see your blind spots and encourage you to start seeing them, so much the better. Try it!
Retric 9y ago
Often dead suspects cost multiple millions. So, it's not as clear cut as you may assume.
- thanksgiving 9y ago
  > Often dead suspects cost multiple millions. So, it's not as clear cut as you may assume. Clearly, not often enough!

tyingq 9y ago

Have to wonder if crime really went down, or just bogus arrests went down.

WillReplyfFood 9y ago

If i where a arms-dealer protecting my trade, i would know where my next free shipment is headed.

jessaustin 9y ago

More victims are just getting to the hospital faster by calling an Uber. This seems like a real indictment of the ambulance system?

joekrill 9y ago
I wouldn't agree with that. First, Uber drivers are roaming the streets constantly, so it's likely there will be one within close proximity to you. Or at least much more likely than an ambulance, which are usually stationed at fixed locations (Hospitals, Fire Stations). Further, Ambulances are crazy expensive. So if it's not an absolutely critical emergency, it makes much more financial sense to just use an Uber. WAAAAYYY cheaper. Like, not even in the same ballpark cheaper. Even if you have insurance, you might have to pay a few hundred dollars co-pay for an ambulance ride. It's basically the same reason the urgent care clinics have grown so much in popularity. It used to be you either went to the ER, or waited a few days to get an appointment with your physician. Now there's an affordable middle ground that makes sense in the cases that are urgent and can't wait, but aren't life threatening in any way.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> This seems like a real indictment of the ambulance system? Not really; ambulances aren't intended to actually minimize time to physically reach the hospital, they minimize time to emergency medical attention by, in effect, bringing part of the hospital to you.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  The point in TFA was that people are living who previously would have died. If it's better to get to the hospital quickly than wait around for whatever attention the ambulance can give you, that's a mark against the entire idea of ambulances. Incidentally, sibling is right about ambulance costs. Every time I've been to the emergency room, I've taken a private vehicle to get there. In one event I was about twenty minutes from dying of internal blood loss.

teknopaul 9y ago

A murder rate of 22 per 100,000 is nothing to be proud of.

lykr0n 9y ago
Down from 87 per 100,000? I think it's an improvement.

RickJWagner 9y ago

“Nothing stops a bullet like a job.” I truly believe this, and I'm on the right side of the political aisle on most positions. A strong economy lifts many boats.

CyberDildonics 9y ago
> A strong economy lifts many boats. A strong economy isn't going to get an uneducated person a job
- ggg9990 9y ago
  Sure it will, if it is a well diversified economy.

woodandsteel 9y ago

I'm thinking it would be nice if there were a TV series based on community policing, instead of the usual that make police heros for being macho and violent.

huebomont 9y ago
Happy Valley

pvaldes 9y ago

> fewer officers, lower pay... There are two ways to "improve" the crime statistics. Having really a lower crime ratio is one. Stopping to count smaller crimes, discouraging people to denounce or hiding cases under the carpet instead to report it to your boss or the press is another. I'm not saying that is the case here, but this can happen.