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> programmers don't go far enough asking the questions Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questi

> programmers don't go far enough asking the questions Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Don't pretend that non-tech people are capable of doing anything tech-intensive. I am tired of the unilateral narrative of "tech people really blabla...". People are trained differently, and their time is focused on different areas. If you want to talk, stop implicitly insult the other group of co-workers.

webkike 9y ago
When I was learning to program, designing a good interface was something I always considered to be part of the job. Maybe not graphic design but there's always an element of interface design somewhere in programming, such as API design
Jare 9y ago
> programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions It may be hard to do right and it may be oblique to the typical reasons and interests for which someone becomes a programmer, but it absolutely is (or was, and should still be) part of the training for a programmer. And the time to do it must be part of the task, just like time to do proper testing or documentation.
danso 9y ago
> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Why be so hostile towards Romero's comment, which seemed to be made in a light-hearted context? He's describing the situation as he has seen it; perhaps he is mistakenly inclined to put the onus on programmers rather than cultural and historical factors because of how programmer culture is so steeped in self-driven destiny-controlling meritocracy. I agree that culture (which includes training) is a factor -- OTOH, that doesn't mean Romero's quip isn't useful to programmers who can use it to better themselves.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' These are not questions anyone should be "trained" to ask. These are natural questions that should come up when asked to implement some requirement. When I'm handed a requirement I don't go run off and start typing code. I ask clarifying questions because I have never once seen a req that didn't make me have questions. That should come natural.
thehardsphere 9y ago
> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Speak for yourself, bub. I ask questions all the time when I write software. Usually, when I write software for someone other than myself, I have these things called "functional specifications", which is how I know if the thing I wrote does what the person I wrote it for expects. Sometimes those are in a big, boring document that some corporate department insisted we write in advance, other times they're in the form of "user stories", depending on how the people I write software for like to do their planning. But either way, I ask questions and try to figure out what they want, and I do it because I'm the skilled person who has to try to do that. And asking those kinds of questions is part of the job, unless you're making something for yourself or if you have no customers. And if you want to talk, maybe you shouldn't insult all programmers everywhere by suggesting they share your lack of skill when it comes to talking to people.
jmts 9y ago
> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. The technical skills an engineer is trained in are much less than half of the actual skills you need in order to be a good engineer. Arguably communication is one of the most important. You're there to solve problems. Solving problems without creating more problems involves solving the right problems. Finding the right problem requires asking the right questions.

webkike 9y ago

When I was learning to program, designing a good interface was something I always considered to be part of the job. Maybe not graphic design but there's always an element of interface design somewhere in programming, such as API design

Jare 9y ago

> programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions It may be hard to do right and it may be oblique to the typical reasons and interests for which someone becomes a programmer, but it absolutely is (or was, and should still be) part of the training for a programmer. And the time to do it must be part of the task, just like time to do proper testing or documentation.

danso 9y ago

> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Why be so hostile towards Romero's comment, which seemed to be made in a light-hearted context? He's describing the situation as he has seen it; perhaps he is mistakenly inclined to put the onus on programmers rather than cultural and historical factors because of how programmer culture is so steeped in self-driven destiny-controlling meritocracy. I agree that culture (which includes training) is a factor -- OTOH, that doesn't mean Romero's quip isn't useful to programmers who can use it to better themselves.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' These are not questions anyone should be "trained" to ask. These are natural questions that should come up when asked to implement some requirement. When I'm handed a requirement I don't go run off and start typing code. I ask clarifying questions because I have never once seen a req that didn't make me have questions. That should come natural.

thehardsphere 9y ago

> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Speak for yourself, bub. I ask questions all the time when I write software. Usually, when I write software for someone other than myself, I have these things called "functional specifications", which is how I know if the thing I wrote does what the person I wrote it for expects. Sometimes those are in a big, boring document that some corporate department insisted we write in advance, other times they're in the form of "user stories", depending on how the people I write software for like to do their planning. But either way, I ask questions and try to figure out what they want, and I do it because I'm the skilled person who has to try to do that. And asking those kinds of questions is part of the job, unless you're making something for yourself or if you have no customers. And if you want to talk, maybe you shouldn't insult all programmers everywhere by suggesting they share your lack of skill when it comes to talking to people.

jmts 9y ago

> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. The technical skills an engineer is trained in are much less than half of the actual skills you need in order to be a good engineer. Arguably communication is one of the most important. You're there to solve problems. Solving problems without creating more problems involves solving the right problems. Finding the right problem requires asking the right questions.