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This does not help at all for the drubbing that macOS High Sierra has been getting recently. Long term OS X users have been waiting for a Snow Leopard like rele

This does not help at all for the drubbing that macOS High Sierra has been getting recently. Long term OS X users have been waiting for a Snow Leopard like release, but it seems like Apple isn’t taking as much care as required on security and stability on the Mac. Something has to give — either Apple’s organizational structure needs a change or Apple needs to abandon certain things completely instead of releasing sub-standard products that aren’t expected from it. As a long time Mac user, I keep hoping that Apple will decide to double down on better and deeper focus on all its products, including the Mac, its OS and ecosystem, and make the changes necessary across its organization and its teams.

jezfromfuture 9y ago
Snow leopard wasn’t all that till it got a few updates either
- nolok 9y ago
  Didn't use OSX back then, but I think there is a good distance between "not all that" and the security fiasco going on with High Sierra.
  - whhwer823 9y ago
    Security fiascos that most of the time, required one have physical access to the machine in many cases (discounting the recent discovery of Intel bugs). In which case you're screwed anyway. Remember Windows track record as a Swiss cheese POS? They took the complaints, did work to better monitor for issues, now it's a privacy invasion! And how you could basically crack a Mac too, but no one noticed because they weren't as ubiquitous? Selective memory is thing in IT communities. Forgetting that forehead smacking security issues have always been here. Put a Windows XP box online pre-sp1 and instantly get hit with RPC attacks. 'Net security only became a concern for companies in the last decade. And they're still terrible. There are still boxes of disks and tapes being stolen, along with Intel-like bugs we'll never find. But yeah, I'm sure soon we'll figure these all out. Any day now. Just accept it's lowest common denominator engineering and chill.
  - IBM 9y ago
    What about having it wipe all your user data? https://www.computerworld.com/article/2528936/mac-os-x/snow-leopard-bug-deletes-all-user-data.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2528936/mac-os-x/snow-...
    - nolok 9y ago
      On one hand you have massive data loss, a big issue for sure but something well understood, well known, that you can and should be prepared against in any case; you're never protected against: your computer being run over, or your house being on fire, or your HD suddenly dying. If I lose files by lack of backup, I can be angry at myself for not having done proper backups, whatever the source of the deletion, this is something I can remedy. On the other you have giving access to your data to people who shouldn't have access, be it making them root, giving your encryption password in the hint field, ... You're not prepared against that, you have no mitigation and no remedy other than picking the right tool; either the tool you're using is secure or it is not. Better everything gets deleted than someone not meant to have access getting it. And better something happens that I could insure myself against, than something against which I cannot do anything to protect myself.
- real_estate 9y ago
  It was all downhill after 10.6.8.
dkonofalski 9y ago
The thing that I don't understand, as a developer, is how these types of bugs even make it in to these releases. Was the "lock" functionality in System Preferences changed at all in any meaningful way for the App Store panel. It doesn't seem like anything about that functionality is sufficiently different so how did this break? Did they bypass the check in order to work on the panel and forget to re-enable it or something? I just don't see how these things happen... Edit: I just checked an old work machine that we have and the lock isn't even included on the App Store pane in Sierra. This leads me to believe that the only bug here is the inclusion of the lock icon and prompt without the actual code behind it to do the authentication. Seems like the bug is that someone put a lock where it wasn't supposed to be or it was added for a future addition to this panel. Either way, definitely not as major as I first thought.
- rickmode 9y ago
  Maybe Apple has embraced one of these "Agile" methodologies where you basically eliminate your QA group in the promise that developer created unit and integration tests can cover the quality gap. QA and dev approach software with different mindsets, and I've noticed in Agile projects where QA is mostly or entirely missing, there is a skill gap. Edit: People - I'm not trying to be flippant. I really have seen a decrease in quality in the transition to Agile. We use Scrum or Kanban where I work, and while overall the approach to estimation and the smaller scheduling and estimating increment is better, in many projects where I work there is no _separate_ QA group. A few project do retain it (though re-branded as "Performance, Stability, Reliability" - PSR) and it does help, but generally this PSR doesn't cover everything our old QA groups used to cover. In any case, I have no insight in to what is happening inside Apple. I'm really just suggesting that given the prevalence of Agile methodologies these day, perhaps a non-ideal transition to Agile is a contributing factor to their quality issues.
  - loopbit 9y ago
    I agree with you, the lack of QA skills in a team is a dangerous thing. But I disagree with the notion that the agile methodologies are the problem, more like an excuse from the same people that would use any other excuse to cut corners[0]. A QA column (or set of columns) fits perfectly with Kanban. Years ago I started seeing companies combining QA and product teams[1]. It required product people with a bit of technical background but, when done right, worked incredibly well. Nowadays not only I've stopped seeing that trend, but most product teams I see are completely ignorant of technical matters. QA teams seem to be more or less missing or seriously understaffed. --- [0] Not to speak of the need to be "agile" without changing a single thing in the process. I can't count the number of times I've seen teams using what is, essentially, a waterfall process (including long development cycles with no contact with the customer at all) self-describing themselves as agile. [1] So the same team defining the new features also creates the tests, both automated and manual, and checked the results.
raverbashing 9y ago
Edit: El Capitain doesn't have the padlock on that pane Other panes validate the password correctly
- niteshade 9y ago
  On El Capitan, I don't even see a padlock on the AppStore prefpane.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    You're right and I'm wrong
  - SyneRyder 9y ago
    That was my experience too... but after clicking around for a while & then going back to the App Store prefpane, I did see a padlock (unlocked) on the App Store prefpane. I haven't been able to reproduce it again, but it seems there's some kind of bug there even on El Capitan.
miles 9y ago
> it seems like Apple isn’t taking as much care as required on security and stability on the Mac It's even worse than that according to[0] Mark Gurman[1]: In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the iPhone and iPad more power. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple-alienated-mac-loyalists https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple... [1] https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurman-apple-scoop https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurm...
- derefr 9y ago
  Under a different lens, that implies that previously iOS-only engineers now must also become familiar with the macOS codebase, and so more able to contribute to it. Given the large number of those engineers compared to the previous size of the macOS team, this may help more than hurt macOS (as long as you assume the engineering teams are of equivalent quality.)
  - btown 9y ago
    While it's tolerable to have engineers jumping between projects in, say, web frontend, I'd imagine that operating system security work is incredibly sensitive to programmer context-switching - you can't dive deep into the security model of a desktop system in your 20% time when you're working with an entirely different system (with a different CPU architecture) in your 80% time. Of course there will be some specialization on this team, but it doesn't seem to be nearly enough. Unfortunately, it will take something like a botched release (not just a security problem) and heads rolling to reverse this trend.
    - derefr 9y ago
      Most of the codebases of both iOS and macOS are fundamentally the same kind of (low-level but architecture-independent C and Objective-C) code, and encouraging team unification will make that even more true—if the same people are working on both AppKit and UIKit, for example, it's a no-brainer to unify them rather than maintaining that duplication. The exception is the kernels and drivers of each OS, which have to consider things like architecture, but I would expect that it'll still be the same individual engineers working on these who always have, no matter what their team structure looks like now. Whether or not Apple has a formal "macOS kernel team" or "iOS kernel team", those groups definitely exist and have rather static membership. (In fact, one main benefit you might see from this is that Apple has hardware hires—many from Intel[1]—who have stepped up to apply their knowledge of formal verification methods to the iOS kernel and drivers, but haven't necessarily had the flexibility to spread that love to macOS. That can change now.) [1] https://danluu.com/cpu-bugs/ https://danluu.com/cpu-bugs/ (search for "Apple")
whhwer823 9y ago
Prepare to be disappointed They're unifying their SDKs to produce one app type. The Mac line is on its way out for content consumption devices, and UI's that offload the real work to services: iPhone/iPad That way management can keep tabs on everything. This is Toyota manufacturing taken to its extremes. We're just dumb machine operators, only allowed a partial view into how things work.
hanklazard 9y ago
I'm also a long-time Mac user, but I've really had about enough of this. Between the seemingly constant stream of security problems and the dumbing down of OSX (MacOS, whatever), I'm not sure I'm willing to pay a premium for this product anymore. At the same time the Apple seems to be dropping the ball, some of the more noob-friendly linux distros are starting to look very attractive. And while Apple still seems to have the best hardware overall, a Lenovo Carbon X1 seems like a very decent option. I'm by no means a "pro" user (I have a decent understanding of computers, can get around on linux command line, some basic experiences in programming, etc), but I'm probably going to start making the switch, at least for my laptop. Slightly off topic, but one of the only software issues holding me back previously was 1Password compatibility on linux, but apparently, it is now available (1). Anyone tried it? It's not a stand-alone application, but I'm probably okay with that. (1) https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/79940/a-present-for-chrome-os-and-linux-users https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/79940/a-present...
- eeks 9y ago
  > Slightly off topic, but one of the only software issues holding me back previously was 1Password compatibility on linux, but apparently, it is now available (1). Well, it's a Chrome extension. For some people (including yours truly), it's a deal breaker. I would suggest `password-store`[0] if you don't need to share your vault with anyone. [0] https://www.passwordstore.org https://www.passwordstore.org
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
    > if you don't need to share your vault with anyone Or any other devices? Or even have rudimentary browser integration? How is this an alternative?
    - eeks 9y ago
      Please check their website. You have extensions for Firefox, applications for Android, etc... It is an alternative, albeit not a drop-in replacement.
  - 9y ago
Asmod4n 9y ago
Snow Leopard was only as good as you remember at its final release, two years later.
- mbesto 9y ago
  The parent's point is that SL was almost explicitly a performance/optimization gain and not a feature release. It literally give you ~8GB (IIRC) of extra disk space for just installing it. I would fork over money to Apple for them to do another SL-like OS release. Are you listening Apple?!
  - FabHK 9y ago
    Wasn't High Sierra supposed to be the same? Lots of improvements under the hood, few if any visible new features?
    - knolan 9y ago
      High Sierra was lots of new changes under tho hood whereas Snow Leopard was lots of improvements to existing stuff. High Sierra switches solid state drives to the new APFS file system and the WindowServer is now rewritten to use Metal2. So I would suggest that High Sierra is far from a stability release like Snow Leopard was. It was about ripping out the foundations and building new ones. The APFS transition, to Apple’s credit has been mostly painless while the WindowServer changes has been hit miss depending on your hardware. These were things Apple had to do and they benefit all their platforms.
roryisok 9y ago
> Something has to give I disagree, I think Apple can continue to release sub standard products for macos with little or no consequence as long as people are willing to hand them $1000 for an iPhone.
djsumdog 9y ago
> Snow Leopard like release This was the last good MacOS in my opinion. Starting with Lion they removed Expose, and they removed the workspace grid and replaced it with that shitty Mission Control rubbish. I hated I couldn't down-grade (or really upgrade depending on how you look at it) my Lion laptop back to Snow Lepord. It was so unusable I actually went back to Linux and tried a bunch of different tiling window managers. I've been on i3 ever since.
- kstrauser 9y ago
  In fairness, I also hated Mission Control at first. I'd sure hate going from the (High)? Sierra version back to Expose now, though.
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    The first couple release of Mission Control were total ass, the window grouping pissed me off to absolutely no end. I don't know when they fixed it since I missed Yosemite and El Capitan, but they finally brought back the old-style expose layout for windows at the very least which makes me much happier. Now if only they would put full screen on a separate button again, I HATE that the zoom button was been hijacked and I have to hold down option just to zoom a window. Why can I not change the default behavior? That would be a nice compromise at least.
cageface 9y ago
The yearly release cadence doesn't seem to be good for software quality of iOS or MacOS. iOS 11 is one of the buggiest releases they've had in a long time. A year really isn't very much time to develop, test and debug a new operating system release.
dingo_bat 9y ago
> Something has to give — either Apple’s organizational structure needs a change or Apple needs to abandon certain things completely instead of releasing sub-standard products that aren’t expected from it. Or you know, apple users can start acting like concious beings with agency, and start buying better products. It's not like there is a lack of choice out there. If you absolutely hate M$ Windows, dell has a laptop that ships with Ubuntu now. Vote with your wallets.

jezfromfuture 9y ago

Snow leopard wasn’t all that till it got a few updates either

nolok 9y ago
Didn't use OSX back then, but I think there is a good distance between "not all that" and the security fiasco going on with High Sierra.
- whhwer823 9y ago
  Security fiascos that most of the time, required one have physical access to the machine in many cases (discounting the recent discovery of Intel bugs). In which case you're screwed anyway. Remember Windows track record as a Swiss cheese POS? They took the complaints, did work to better monitor for issues, now it's a privacy invasion! And how you could basically crack a Mac too, but no one noticed because they weren't as ubiquitous? Selective memory is thing in IT communities. Forgetting that forehead smacking security issues have always been here. Put a Windows XP box online pre-sp1 and instantly get hit with RPC attacks. 'Net security only became a concern for companies in the last decade. And they're still terrible. There are still boxes of disks and tapes being stolen, along with Intel-like bugs we'll never find. But yeah, I'm sure soon we'll figure these all out. Any day now. Just accept it's lowest common denominator engineering and chill.
- IBM 9y ago
  What about having it wipe all your user data? https://www.computerworld.com/article/2528936/mac-os-x/snow-leopard-bug-deletes-all-user-data.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2528936/mac-os-x/snow-...
  - nolok 9y ago
    On one hand you have massive data loss, a big issue for sure but something well understood, well known, that you can and should be prepared against in any case; you're never protected against: your computer being run over, or your house being on fire, or your HD suddenly dying. If I lose files by lack of backup, I can be angry at myself for not having done proper backups, whatever the source of the deletion, this is something I can remedy. On the other you have giving access to your data to people who shouldn't have access, be it making them root, giving your encryption password in the hint field, ... You're not prepared against that, you have no mitigation and no remedy other than picking the right tool; either the tool you're using is secure or it is not. Better everything gets deleted than someone not meant to have access getting it. And better something happens that I could insure myself against, than something against which I cannot do anything to protect myself.
real_estate 9y ago
It was all downhill after 10.6.8.

dkonofalski 9y ago

The thing that I don't understand, as a developer, is how these types of bugs even make it in to these releases. Was the "lock" functionality in System Preferences changed at all in any meaningful way for the App Store panel. It doesn't seem like anything about that functionality is sufficiently different so how did this break? Did they bypass the check in order to work on the panel and forget to re-enable it or something? I just don't see how these things happen... Edit: I just checked an old work machine that we have and the lock isn't even included on the App Store pane in Sierra. This leads me to believe that the only bug here is the inclusion of the lock icon and prompt without the actual code behind it to do the authentication. Seems like the bug is that someone put a lock where it wasn't supposed to be or it was added for a future addition to this panel. Either way, definitely not as major as I first thought.

rickmode 9y ago
Maybe Apple has embraced one of these "Agile" methodologies where you basically eliminate your QA group in the promise that developer created unit and integration tests can cover the quality gap. QA and dev approach software with different mindsets, and I've noticed in Agile projects where QA is mostly or entirely missing, there is a skill gap. Edit: People - I'm not trying to be flippant. I really have seen a decrease in quality in the transition to Agile. We use Scrum or Kanban where I work, and while overall the approach to estimation and the smaller scheduling and estimating increment is better, in many projects where I work there is no _separate_ QA group. A few project do retain it (though re-branded as "Performance, Stability, Reliability" - PSR) and it does help, but generally this PSR doesn't cover everything our old QA groups used to cover. In any case, I have no insight in to what is happening inside Apple. I'm really just suggesting that given the prevalence of Agile methodologies these day, perhaps a non-ideal transition to Agile is a contributing factor to their quality issues.
- loopbit 9y ago
  I agree with you, the lack of QA skills in a team is a dangerous thing. But I disagree with the notion that the agile methodologies are the problem, more like an excuse from the same people that would use any other excuse to cut corners[0]. A QA column (or set of columns) fits perfectly with Kanban. Years ago I started seeing companies combining QA and product teams[1]. It required product people with a bit of technical background but, when done right, worked incredibly well. Nowadays not only I've stopped seeing that trend, but most product teams I see are completely ignorant of technical matters. QA teams seem to be more or less missing or seriously understaffed. --- [0] Not to speak of the need to be "agile" without changing a single thing in the process. I can't count the number of times I've seen teams using what is, essentially, a waterfall process (including long development cycles with no contact with the customer at all) self-describing themselves as agile. [1] So the same team defining the new features also creates the tests, both automated and manual, and checked the results.

raverbashing 9y ago

Edit: El Capitain doesn't have the padlock on that pane Other panes validate the password correctly

niteshade 9y ago
On El Capitan, I don't even see a padlock on the AppStore prefpane.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  You're right and I'm wrong
- SyneRyder 9y ago
  That was my experience too... but after clicking around for a while & then going back to the App Store prefpane, I did see a padlock (unlocked) on the App Store prefpane. I haven't been able to reproduce it again, but it seems there's some kind of bug there even on El Capitan.

miles 9y ago

> it seems like Apple isn’t taking as much care as required on security and stability on the Mac It's even worse than that according to[0] Mark Gurman[1]: In another sign that the company has prioritized the iPhone, Apple re-organized its software engineering department so there's no longer a dedicated Mac operating system team. There is now just one team, and most of the engineers are iOS first, giving the people working on the iPhone and iPad more power. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple-alienated-mac-loyalists https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/how-apple... [1] https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurman-apple-scoop https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurm...

derefr 9y ago
Under a different lens, that implies that previously iOS-only engineers now must also become familiar with the macOS codebase, and so more able to contribute to it. Given the large number of those engineers compared to the previous size of the macOS team, this may help more than hurt macOS (as long as you assume the engineering teams are of equivalent quality.)
- btown 9y ago
  While it's tolerable to have engineers jumping between projects in, say, web frontend, I'd imagine that operating system security work is incredibly sensitive to programmer context-switching - you can't dive deep into the security model of a desktop system in your 20% time when you're working with an entirely different system (with a different CPU architecture) in your 80% time. Of course there will be some specialization on this team, but it doesn't seem to be nearly enough. Unfortunately, it will take something like a botched release (not just a security problem) and heads rolling to reverse this trend.
  - derefr 9y ago
    Most of the codebases of both iOS and macOS are fundamentally the same kind of (low-level but architecture-independent C and Objective-C) code, and encouraging team unification will make that even more true—if the same people are working on both AppKit and UIKit, for example, it's a no-brainer to unify them rather than maintaining that duplication. The exception is the kernels and drivers of each OS, which have to consider things like architecture, but I would expect that it'll still be the same individual engineers working on these who always have, no matter what their team structure looks like now. Whether or not Apple has a formal "macOS kernel team" or "iOS kernel team", those groups definitely exist and have rather static membership. (In fact, one main benefit you might see from this is that Apple has hardware hires—many from Intel[1]—who have stepped up to apply their knowledge of formal verification methods to the iOS kernel and drivers, but haven't necessarily had the flexibility to spread that love to macOS. That can change now.) [1] https://danluu.com/cpu-bugs/ https://danluu.com/cpu-bugs/ (search for "Apple")

whhwer823 9y ago

Prepare to be disappointed They're unifying their SDKs to produce one app type. The Mac line is on its way out for content consumption devices, and UI's that offload the real work to services: iPhone/iPad That way management can keep tabs on everything. This is Toyota manufacturing taken to its extremes. We're just dumb machine operators, only allowed a partial view into how things work.

hanklazard 9y ago

I'm also a long-time Mac user, but I've really had about enough of this. Between the seemingly constant stream of security problems and the dumbing down of OSX (MacOS, whatever), I'm not sure I'm willing to pay a premium for this product anymore. At the same time the Apple seems to be dropping the ball, some of the more noob-friendly linux distros are starting to look very attractive. And while Apple still seems to have the best hardware overall, a Lenovo Carbon X1 seems like a very decent option. I'm by no means a "pro" user (I have a decent understanding of computers, can get around on linux command line, some basic experiences in programming, etc), but I'm probably going to start making the switch, at least for my laptop. Slightly off topic, but one of the only software issues holding me back previously was 1Password compatibility on linux, but apparently, it is now available (1). Anyone tried it? It's not a stand-alone application, but I'm probably okay with that. (1) https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/79940/a-present-for-chrome-os-and-linux-users https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/79940/a-present...

eeks 9y ago
> Slightly off topic, but one of the only software issues holding me back previously was 1Password compatibility on linux, but apparently, it is now available (1). Well, it's a Chrome extension. For some people (including yours truly), it's a deal breaker. I would suggest `password-store`[0] if you don't need to share your vault with anyone. [0] https://www.passwordstore.org https://www.passwordstore.org
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  > if you don't need to share your vault with anyone Or any other devices? Or even have rudimentary browser integration? How is this an alternative?
  - eeks 9y ago
    Please check their website. You have extensions for Firefox, applications for Android, etc... It is an alternative, albeit not a drop-in replacement.
- 9y ago

Asmod4n 9y ago

Snow Leopard was only as good as you remember at its final release, two years later.

mbesto 9y ago
The parent's point is that SL was almost explicitly a performance/optimization gain and not a feature release. It literally give you ~8GB (IIRC) of extra disk space for just installing it. I would fork over money to Apple for them to do another SL-like OS release. Are you listening Apple?!
- FabHK 9y ago
  Wasn't High Sierra supposed to be the same? Lots of improvements under the hood, few if any visible new features?
  - knolan 9y ago
    High Sierra was lots of new changes under tho hood whereas Snow Leopard was lots of improvements to existing stuff. High Sierra switches solid state drives to the new APFS file system and the WindowServer is now rewritten to use Metal2. So I would suggest that High Sierra is far from a stability release like Snow Leopard was. It was about ripping out the foundations and building new ones. The APFS transition, to Apple’s credit has been mostly painless while the WindowServer changes has been hit miss depending on your hardware. These were things Apple had to do and they benefit all their platforms.

roryisok 9y ago

> Something has to give I disagree, I think Apple can continue to release sub standard products for macos with little or no consequence as long as people are willing to hand them $1000 for an iPhone.

djsumdog 9y ago

> Snow Leopard like release This was the last good MacOS in my opinion. Starting with Lion they removed Expose, and they removed the workspace grid and replaced it with that shitty Mission Control rubbish. I hated I couldn't down-grade (or really upgrade depending on how you look at it) my Lion laptop back to Snow Lepord. It was so unusable I actually went back to Linux and tried a bunch of different tiling window managers. I've been on i3 ever since.

kstrauser 9y ago
In fairness, I also hated Mission Control at first. I'd sure hate going from the (High)? Sierra version back to Expose now, though.
- snuxoll 9y ago
  The first couple release of Mission Control were total ass, the window grouping pissed me off to absolutely no end. I don't know when they fixed it since I missed Yosemite and El Capitan, but they finally brought back the old-style expose layout for windows at the very least which makes me much happier. Now if only they would put full screen on a separate button again, I HATE that the zoom button was been hijacked and I have to hold down option just to zoom a window. Why can I not change the default behavior? That would be a nice compromise at least.

cageface 9y ago

The yearly release cadence doesn't seem to be good for software quality of iOS or MacOS. iOS 11 is one of the buggiest releases they've had in a long time. A year really isn't very much time to develop, test and debug a new operating system release.

dingo_bat 9y ago

> Something has to give — either Apple’s organizational structure needs a change or Apple needs to abandon certain things completely instead of releasing sub-standard products that aren’t expected from it. Or you know, apple users can start acting like concious beings with agency, and start buying better products. It's not like there is a lack of choice out there. If you absolutely hate M$ Windows, dell has a laptop that ships with Ubuntu now. Vote with your wallets.