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> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' As someb

> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' As somebody who is currently trying to push more UI/UX-centric ideas in their company, this quote really hits home. Edit: maybe someday I'll get formatting right the first time.

danso 9y ago
Also: "It's also important to take the time to really use the tool yourself, so you can experience what's annoying about it." Even if programmers are willing to ask those questions, it's a two-way street, and users often don't know what to ask for, or what's possible [insert apocryphal Henry Ford quote about faster horses]. Obviously, asking those questions and pursuing answers is a key attitude, but maybe that attitude also has to be augmented by trying to dogfood what you're building for someone else.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Which is why exploratory UI/UX design with tools like Balsamiq , Sketch or Adobe XD is important. A bunch of screens that can be used to discuss UI workflows with the actual users, before writing any line of code or setting decisions into stone that can turn into show stoppers.
- jmts 9y ago
  > A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' > It's also important to take the time to really use the tool yourself, so you can experience what's annoying about it. I've actually found both of these to be useful in discovering future side-projects, or the design of my future home. What am I really trying to do? Maybe I should use a cloud-based option rather than a file-sync oriented one. What annoys me so much about this? Push to open cupboards have no visual UI hints and the dishwasher requires you to knock to open it. Just add some handles and be done with it! If this annoys me, will it annoy someone else? Maybe I could develop a product around this.
justicezyx 9y ago
> programmers don't go far enough asking the questions Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Don't pretend that non-tech people are capable of doing anything tech-intensive. I am tired of the unilateral narrative of "tech people really blabla...". People are trained differently, and their time is focused on different areas. If you want to talk, stop implicitly insult the other group of co-workers.
- webkike 9y ago
  When I was learning to program, designing a good interface was something I always considered to be part of the job. Maybe not graphic design but there's always an element of interface design somewhere in programming, such as API design
- Jare 9y ago
  > programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions It may be hard to do right and it may be oblique to the typical reasons and interests for which someone becomes a programmer, but it absolutely is (or was, and should still be) part of the training for a programmer. And the time to do it must be part of the task, just like time to do proper testing or documentation.
- danso 9y ago
  > Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Why be so hostile towards Romero's comment, which seemed to be made in a light-hearted context? He's describing the situation as he has seen it; perhaps he is mistakenly inclined to put the onus on programmers rather than cultural and historical factors because of how programmer culture is so steeped in self-driven destiny-controlling meritocracy. I agree that culture (which includes training) is a factor -- OTOH, that doesn't mean Romero's quip isn't useful to programmers who can use it to better themselves.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  > A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' These are not questions anyone should be "trained" to ask. These are natural questions that should come up when asked to implement some requirement. When I'm handed a requirement I don't go run off and start typing code. I ask clarifying questions because I have never once seen a req that didn't make me have questions. That should come natural.
pjmlp 9y ago
Fully agree, however that is a skill that is also possible to learn, just like any framework or programming language. However I do concede that they are easier to grasp for those that are stronger into graphics programming. Qt, JavaFX, HTML/CSS, Android, UWP, WPF, random UI toolkit, are then just the tools how to bring those UI/UX ideas into life.

danso 9y ago

Also: "It's also important to take the time to really use the tool yourself, so you can experience what's annoying about it." Even if programmers are willing to ask those questions, it's a two-way street, and users often don't know what to ask for, or what's possible [insert apocryphal Henry Ford quote about faster horses]. Obviously, asking those questions and pursuing answers is a key attitude, but maybe that attitude also has to be augmented by trying to dogfood what you're building for someone else.

pjmlp 9y ago
Which is why exploratory UI/UX design with tools like Balsamiq , Sketch or Adobe XD is important. A bunch of screens that can be used to discuss UI workflows with the actual users, before writing any line of code or setting decisions into stone that can turn into show stoppers.
jmts 9y ago
> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' > It's also important to take the time to really use the tool yourself, so you can experience what's annoying about it. I've actually found both of these to be useful in discovering future side-projects, or the design of my future home. What am I really trying to do? Maybe I should use a cloud-based option rather than a file-sync oriented one. What annoys me so much about this? Push to open cupboards have no visual UI hints and the dishwasher requires you to knock to open it. Just add some handles and be done with it! If this annoys me, will it annoy someone else? Maybe I could develop a product around this.

justicezyx 9y ago

> programmers don't go far enough asking the questions Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Don't pretend that non-tech people are capable of doing anything tech-intensive. I am tired of the unilateral narrative of "tech people really blabla...". People are trained differently, and their time is focused on different areas. If you want to talk, stop implicitly insult the other group of co-workers.

webkike 9y ago
When I was learning to program, designing a good interface was something I always considered to be part of the job. Maybe not graphic design but there's always an element of interface design somewhere in programming, such as API design
Jare 9y ago
> programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions It may be hard to do right and it may be oblique to the typical reasons and interests for which someone becomes a programmer, but it absolutely is (or was, and should still be) part of the training for a programmer. And the time to do it must be part of the task, just like time to do proper testing or documentation.
danso 9y ago
> Please state the fact: programmers are not trained, nor have the time to go far enough asking the questions. Why be so hostile towards Romero's comment, which seemed to be made in a light-hearted context? He's describing the situation as he has seen it; perhaps he is mistakenly inclined to put the onus on programmers rather than cultural and historical factors because of how programmer culture is so steeped in self-driven destiny-controlling meritocracy. I agree that culture (which includes training) is a factor -- OTOH, that doesn't mean Romero's quip isn't useful to programmers who can use it to better themselves.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
> A lot of times, ... programmers don't go far enough asking the questions about 'Why do you want that? What is it that you're actually trying to do?' These are not questions anyone should be "trained" to ask. These are natural questions that should come up when asked to implement some requirement. When I'm handed a requirement I don't go run off and start typing code. I ask clarifying questions because I have never once seen a req that didn't make me have questions. That should come natural.

pjmlp 9y ago

Fully agree, however that is a skill that is also possible to learn, just like any framework or programming language. However I do concede that they are easier to grasp for those that are stronger into graphics programming. Qt, JavaFX, HTML/CSS, Android, UWP, WPF, random UI toolkit, are then just the tools how to bring those UI/UX ideas into life.