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But that in itself is also a problem, because people outside the security community does not like Signal. I've tried so many times to convert people, but every

But that in itself is also a problem, because people outside the security community does not like Signal. I've tried so many times to convert people, but every non-security person prefer LINE, WhatsApp and Telegram. The reasons are simple; they are fun to use, good user experience and the most important one "my friends use it".

kbart 9y ago
Yes, "my friends use it" argument greatly impedes switching to another app, even though it is better. Anyway, slowly, but surely I expand my circle of Signal users. Current version of Signal is actually quite polished, at least not worse than WhatsApp was the last time I used it (before acquisition by Facebook), and I rarely hear complaints about usability anymore from people who have actually tried it.
- Outpox 9y ago
  I'm trying to push Keybase within my friend group. I've yet to try Signal.
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    Ditto, but you'll have more luck with Signal. They'll see the value of it more quickly. I'm currently trying to get 3 people to use Keybase. My girlfriend/fiancee: Lives in another country, we're sharing data involving PII to deal with immigration stuffs. My sister: We have a side project and I'd like to use the team based, private git repos. A colleague: Same as sister, plus he's generally interested in privacy/security. And it's still been like pulling teeth to get him to do it.
vitro 9y ago
Yes, in Signal you for example still cannot share one photo to multiple recipients or share multiple photos. I've installed it to all my relatives and they use it anyway, just those simple things would make it a bit better for your average "share pictures of my kids" types of use.
- Vinnl 9y ago
  I think I did send photos to Signal groups?
- tptacek 9y ago
  People say things like this about Signal but tend not to acknowledge why Signal is like that. Look at how Signal handles something as basic as user profiles, then compare it to how other applications address the same problems. I'll recommend Wire alongside WhatsApp any day, but keep in mind that Wire's servers apparently have a record of every conversation that has occurred between any two Wire users (not the content, mind you, just the link). This is why I disagree with Matthew Green, do not think we've totally figured out secure messaging yet and that they're all "so good", and think that if you're serious about privacy --- enough to have strong opinions about WhatsApp vs. Signal, for instance --- that you should use multiple messengers: - a "tier 1" secure messaging app like Signal that makes all reasonable tradeoffs in favor of security and privacy regardless of the UX cost, used when possible and for sensitive conversations. - a "tier 2" secure messaging app like WhatsApp or Wire as your "daily messenger". - "tier 3" messenger applications (including email) that you use mostly to rendezvous to a real messenger application. In this scheme you can start to understand Signal as not just a decent messenger application with best-in-class security and privacy, but also as a laboratory for future privacy enhancements to messaging.
  - vitro 9y ago
    Ok, just those problems I have outlined seem to me like an UI hurdle. What's the problem making a simple copy of the message dispatched to the contacts I choose? As if I would do it manually?
  - gcb0 9y ago
    the problem is the problem definition. signal solves messaging. but messaging is only a small part of whatsapp success. Whatsapp is a social network site. where you add friends by the bucket, even if you dont't plan on messaging them, and share baby pictures to a circle or family/friends.
  - FabHK 9y ago
thaumasiotes 9y ago
In the past, I've thought of installing Signal, but never did because it identifies you by your phone number, which seems like a totally unjustifiable and idiotic idea. I'd like to keep using my internet-based service even if I switch phones. There is no reason for my phone number to be known to Signal at any point. Just now, I tried to install Signal and WhatsApp for work communication. Neither is willing to let me do anything unless I grant them permission to read my contacts. I use WeChat. (Not for security reasons, obviously.) Somehow, despite the fact that WeChat is heavily coupled to your phone, they've realized that it makes more sense to use a WeChat account than a phone number, and that it makes no sense to prohibit users from just adding contacts manually. Adding contacts manually is actually a preferred approach! (In the form "scan QR code".)

kbart 9y ago

Yes, "my friends use it" argument greatly impedes switching to another app, even though it is better. Anyway, slowly, but surely I expand my circle of Signal users. Current version of Signal is actually quite polished, at least not worse than WhatsApp was the last time I used it (before acquisition by Facebook), and I rarely hear complaints about usability anymore from people who have actually tried it.

Outpox 9y ago
I'm trying to push Keybase within my friend group. I've yet to try Signal.
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  Ditto, but you'll have more luck with Signal. They'll see the value of it more quickly. I'm currently trying to get 3 people to use Keybase. My girlfriend/fiancee: Lives in another country, we're sharing data involving PII to deal with immigration stuffs. My sister: We have a side project and I'd like to use the team based, private git repos. A colleague: Same as sister, plus he's generally interested in privacy/security. And it's still been like pulling teeth to get him to do it.

vitro 9y ago

Yes, in Signal you for example still cannot share one photo to multiple recipients or share multiple photos. I've installed it to all my relatives and they use it anyway, just those simple things would make it a bit better for your average "share pictures of my kids" types of use.

Vinnl 9y ago
I think I did send photos to Signal groups?
tptacek 9y ago
People say things like this about Signal but tend not to acknowledge why Signal is like that. Look at how Signal handles something as basic as user profiles, then compare it to how other applications address the same problems. I'll recommend Wire alongside WhatsApp any day, but keep in mind that Wire's servers apparently have a record of every conversation that has occurred between any two Wire users (not the content, mind you, just the link). This is why I disagree with Matthew Green, do not think we've totally figured out secure messaging yet and that they're all "so good", and think that if you're serious about privacy --- enough to have strong opinions about WhatsApp vs. Signal, for instance --- that you should use multiple messengers: - a "tier 1" secure messaging app like Signal that makes all reasonable tradeoffs in favor of security and privacy regardless of the UX cost, used when possible and for sensitive conversations. - a "tier 2" secure messaging app like WhatsApp or Wire as your "daily messenger". - "tier 3" messenger applications (including email) that you use mostly to rendezvous to a real messenger application. In this scheme you can start to understand Signal as not just a decent messenger application with best-in-class security and privacy, but also as a laboratory for future privacy enhancements to messaging.
- vitro 9y ago
  Ok, just those problems I have outlined seem to me like an UI hurdle. What's the problem making a simple copy of the message dispatched to the contacts I choose? As if I would do it manually?
- gcb0 9y ago
  the problem is the problem definition. signal solves messaging. but messaging is only a small part of whatsapp success. Whatsapp is a social network site. where you add friends by the bucket, even if you dont't plan on messaging them, and share baby pictures to a circle or family/friends.
- FabHK 9y ago

thaumasiotes 9y ago

In the past, I've thought of installing Signal, but never did because it identifies you by your phone number, which seems like a totally unjustifiable and idiotic idea. I'd like to keep using my internet-based service even if I switch phones. There is no reason for my phone number to be known to Signal at any point. Just now, I tried to install Signal and WhatsApp for work communication. Neither is willing to let me do anything unless I grant them permission to read my contacts. I use WeChat. (Not for security reasons, obviously.) Somehow, despite the fact that WeChat is heavily coupled to your phone, they've realized that it makes more sense to use a WeChat account than a phone number, and that it makes no sense to prohibit users from just adding contacts manually. Adding contacts manually is actually a preferred approach! (In the form "scan QR code".)