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well, now the question is philosophical, isn't it? what is pain? if it's a negative reaction to a stimulus, then I'm training a neural network right now that'

well, now the question is philosophical, isn't it? what is pain? if it's a negative reaction to a stimulus, then I'm training a neural network right now that's in a hell of a lot of pain. pain must be a human term for what the sensation of negative stimulus means to us. when a dog is in pain, we are upset, because the way a dog expresses pain is similar to how we do, too. we can't say the same for fish, or plants... etc.

swombat 9y ago
You could say that we’re upset when a dog feels pain not because the dog feels pain (though it does) but because we ourselves feel (sympathetic) pain from looking at the dog in pain, or even just from imagining a dog in pain.
- Vinnl 9y ago
  Have you ever seen fish in pain? IIRC it's hard not to feel sympathetic looking at a fish in pain - though then again I guess hobbyist fishermen manage to.
  - supreme_sublime 9y ago
    As someone who has done a decent amount of fishing. I honestly can't say I've ever seen a fish give me any kinds of pain queues or looks besides a blank stare. A lot of the time, even when you are trying to get a hook out that they swallowed, they don't writhe, or move, but at seemingly random times, that are probably times when they sense they have a good chance of wriggling free of my grip. I've also done a lot of hunting. I would say that birds and deer have been much more sympathetic and you are much more aware of the affect you are having on them. I've definitely seen deer wounded, afraid, and in pain. As a hunter that's one of the most disappointing things to happen and it makes you feel like a failure.
    - Vinnl 9y ago
      Hmm, perhaps there's a difference in magnitude, and a hook maybe isn't that bad? The images I seem to recall were, I think, from larger scale fishing, where fish that were mostly bycatch were writhing on the dry, or fish that were cut open were writhing.

swombat 9y ago

You could say that we’re upset when a dog feels pain not because the dog feels pain (though it does) but because we ourselves feel (sympathetic) pain from looking at the dog in pain, or even just from imagining a dog in pain.

Vinnl 9y ago
Have you ever seen fish in pain? IIRC it's hard not to feel sympathetic looking at a fish in pain - though then again I guess hobbyist fishermen manage to.
- supreme_sublime 9y ago
  As someone who has done a decent amount of fishing. I honestly can't say I've ever seen a fish give me any kinds of pain queues or looks besides a blank stare. A lot of the time, even when you are trying to get a hook out that they swallowed, they don't writhe, or move, but at seemingly random times, that are probably times when they sense they have a good chance of wriggling free of my grip. I've also done a lot of hunting. I would say that birds and deer have been much more sympathetic and you are much more aware of the affect you are having on them. I've definitely seen deer wounded, afraid, and in pain. As a hunter that's one of the most disappointing things to happen and it makes you feel like a failure.
  - Vinnl 9y ago
    Hmm, perhaps there's a difference in magnitude, and a hook maybe isn't that bad? The images I seem to recall were, I think, from larger scale fishing, where fish that were mostly bycatch were writhing on the dry, or fish that were cut open were writhing.