5 ms·

There are surely alternatives/augmentations to antibiotics. One that comes to mind is that exposure to certain blue light wavelengths kills germs (as recently

by manmal 9y ago

There are surely alternatives/augmentations to antibiotics. One that comes to mind is that exposure to certain blue light wavelengths kills germs (as recently discovered by the anti-acne industry). They could irradiate the operated tissue with intense blue light (plus maybe red light to lessen inflammation) before sewing up. And near infrared therapy (LLLT or even LED) would deal with a lot of inflammation post-op. A quite cheap option actually.. it would of course not prevent all infections, but sure a lot of them. ADDED Since people seem to have trouble with the antibacterial claim, here is an article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/ Just google “pubmed blue light antimicrobial”.

adrianN 9y ago
I'm pretty sure that if it were as simple as shining some light on tissue we wouldn't use antibiotics, since they come with pretty strong side-effects. Even supposing that the light really kills germs, the light won't reach all spots in the wound and it wouldn't reach the bacteria that already entered the bloodstream.
- manmal 9y ago
  Some light wavelengths do kill germs, this is well established (EDIT: And I don't even mean UV light, but other, visible wavelengths). Just google it up, there's lots of papers. And big cos like Neutrogena offer inexpensive devices that effectively kill bacteria responsible for acne - that's no proof, but for me an indicator that this has arrived in the mainstream. You are right that light might only kill bacteria on tissue surface. But this is exactly where surgeons need it! My grandfather died of complications caused by a resistant strain infection after hip surgery. What happened is that bacteria from the environment entered the wound before it was sealed. Sure, you won't remotely kill all germs, but you might make an otherwise deadly infection manageable. Just because it's not yet done, does not mean it's BS.
  - KaiserPro 9y ago
    You are confusing anti-septic with antibiotic. Cleaning things _before_ you operate is relativly easy. Iodine/bleach/listerene/arsenic/ozone will all kill bacteria on surfaces. Why antibiotics are great is that they can be taken orally and they kill bacteria _inside_, but not your body. UV/blue light is indescriminate, you can swallow a blue light pill and expect it to descriminate between your body and non-local bacteria
    - tremon 9y ago
      Why antibiotics are great is that they can be taken orally and they kill bacteria _inside_, but not your body. FCVO "your body". Antibiotics definitely do kill gut bacteria, which many consider to be part of our bodies.
      - KaiserPro 9y ago
        yes, it does, which is a side effect, however unlike anti septic it doesn't total the intestine wall, and anything else behind it. For example Arsenic is a brilliant antibiotic, its just it kills you _and_ the infection. what we call antibiotics are far more diserning.
        thfuran 9y ago
        Which really is a shame. I think the terminology ought to be the other way around.
    - manmal 9y ago
      I'm not talking about UV light, see my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16113533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16113533
      - KaiserPro 9y ago
        Which isn't the point I'm making. Topical treatments for a few genus of bacteria are _not_ a viable alternative
hycaria 9y ago
Inflammation is an important response to fight infections actually, the problem is when it gets out of control (or is too annoying to deal with). But it's not good either to shut it down completely. (Your comment seemed quite confused in that regard).
- manmal 9y ago
  Please read up on LLLT - inflammation is not just shut down, but rather mediated. Eg blood flow is increased, energy production in cells is improved by various means (cytochrome-c-oxidase, and also pushing out of nitric oxide). I haven’t seen a good explanation of why exactly inflammation is reduced, but a very consistent finding is that wound healing is sped up and pain is reduced, often by factor 2.
Angostura 9y ago
What you propose is rather similar to suggesting that we drink bleach. Yes UV kills bacteria, it also kills mammalian cells.
- manmal 9y ago
  Blue light is not UV. Yes, shining strong UV-B light on tissue causes DNA damage. I’m talking about the visible blue part of light spectrum. Eg 470nm: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/

by manmal 9y ago

adrianN 9y ago

I'm pretty sure that if it were as simple as shining some light on tissue we wouldn't use antibiotics, since they come with pretty strong side-effects. Even supposing that the light really kills germs, the light won't reach all spots in the wound and it wouldn't reach the bacteria that already entered the bloodstream.

manmal 9y ago
Some light wavelengths do kill germs, this is well established (EDIT: And I don't even mean UV light, but other, visible wavelengths). Just google it up, there's lots of papers. And big cos like Neutrogena offer inexpensive devices that effectively kill bacteria responsible for acne - that's no proof, but for me an indicator that this has arrived in the mainstream. You are right that light might only kill bacteria on tissue surface. But this is exactly where surgeons need it! My grandfather died of complications caused by a resistant strain infection after hip surgery. What happened is that bacteria from the environment entered the wound before it was sealed. Sure, you won't remotely kill all germs, but you might make an otherwise deadly infection manageable. Just because it's not yet done, does not mean it's BS.
- KaiserPro 9y ago
  You are confusing anti-septic with antibiotic. Cleaning things _before_ you operate is relativly easy. Iodine/bleach/listerene/arsenic/ozone will all kill bacteria on surfaces. Why antibiotics are great is that they can be taken orally and they kill bacteria _inside_, but not your body. UV/blue light is indescriminate, you can swallow a blue light pill and expect it to descriminate between your body and non-local bacteria
  - tremon 9y ago
    Why antibiotics are great is that they can be taken orally and they kill bacteria _inside_, but not your body. FCVO "your body". Antibiotics definitely do kill gut bacteria, which many consider to be part of our bodies.
    - KaiserPro 9y ago
      yes, it does, which is a side effect, however unlike anti septic it doesn't total the intestine wall, and anything else behind it. For example Arsenic is a brilliant antibiotic, its just it kills you _and_ the infection. what we call antibiotics are far more diserning.
      - thfuran 9y ago
        Which really is a shame. I think the terminology ought to be the other way around.
  - manmal 9y ago
    I'm not talking about UV light, see my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16113533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16113533
    - KaiserPro 9y ago
      Which isn't the point I'm making. Topical treatments for a few genus of bacteria are _not_ a viable alternative

hycaria 9y ago

Inflammation is an important response to fight infections actually, the problem is when it gets out of control (or is too annoying to deal with). But it's not good either to shut it down completely. (Your comment seemed quite confused in that regard).

manmal 9y ago
Please read up on LLLT - inflammation is not just shut down, but rather mediated. Eg blood flow is increased, energy production in cells is improved by various means (cytochrome-c-oxidase, and also pushing out of nitric oxide). I haven’t seen a good explanation of why exactly inflammation is reduced, but a very consistent finding is that wound healing is sped up and pain is reduced, often by factor 2.

Angostura 9y ago

What you propose is rather similar to suggesting that we drink bleach. Yes UV kills bacteria, it also kills mammalian cells.

manmal 9y ago
Blue light is not UV. Yes, shining strong UV-B light on tissue causes DNA damage. I’m talking about the visible blue part of light spectrum. Eg 470nm: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23009190/