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There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at m

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

thirdsun 9y ago
That is an intersection that needs traffic lights. And if it's just twice a day, default the less used direction to red and have it switch to green only if a car is actually waiting. As a european 4 way stops seem really inefficient to me. If the intersection isn't that busy a 2 way stop (or no stop at all) favouring the more frequently used road is the obvious choice. If it's a busy 4 way stop however, can you really keep track of when other cars arrived at the stop? And if it's busy enough that you have to yield to the car to your right, chances are that everyone has a car to their right - so vague negotiation between drivers is required. Nobody wins in that scenario. Also, roundabouts are the superior 4 way stops.
- __david__ 9y ago
  > Also, roundabouts are the superior 4-way stops. Except on the “compact real estate” axis. A plain intersection is always going to be smaller.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    I'm sorry, have you seen some of the British roundabouts? Where the "roundabout" is just a tiny circle painted in the middle? I'm sure it's not bigger than your normal intersection by any measurable standard, and at least everyone knows exactly what the priorities are, you literally can't get it wrong.
    - brewdad 9y ago
      We've built something like that on neighborhood streets in the US in the name of "traffic calming". Usually, it's a planter or an island with a single tree. We still put up 2-way or 4-way stop signs though because traffic circles make our heads explode. In the end, all it really accomplishes is making it hard to see other vehicles at the intersection.
- klodolph 9y ago
  There often isn't a "more frequently used road". If there were, it would probably be a 2-way stop. Figuring out who goes next is not remotely as difficult as you have made it out to be. Where I used to live, I would go through two four-way stops twice each day during peak traffic. There are generally two scenarios when you approach the intersection. In light traffic, you get to the intersection and nobody else is waiting to cross, or it is obvious who got there first. In moderate traffic, you will queue up behind one or possibly two cars. Once you get to the front of the queue, you wait for the cars on your left and right that are already at the front of the queue, and then you go. This is simple because each direction of traffic alternates, and it is reasonably fast because the queues are very short. The real worst case scenario is that during light traffic four cars approach simultaneously, but not only is this extremely rare, but it is not really even a problem when it happens. In my personal experience I have had far, far more problems in US cities on two-way stops when I am bicycling and a driver incorrectly yields when they have right of way. I suspect that most Americans feel the same way about roundabouts that, say, Germans feel about 4-way stops. But please remember that roundabouts require more land and much more capital investment. The tradeoffs in the US are different.
  - thirdsun 9y ago
    > Once you get to the front of the queue, you wait for the cars on your left and right that are already at the front of the queue, and then you go. This is simple because each direction of traffic alternates, and it is reasonably fast because the queues are very short. Sounds like a high frequency traffic light, but less explicit. Well, admittedly my experience with 4 way stops is nonexistent (never saw one in europe) and it may simply be a case of not being used to them, but I consider give-way intersections, 2 way stops, roundabouts and finally traffic lights as superior solutions - pretty much in that order and depending on how busy the intersection is. The goal should be to reduce breaking and full stops.
- astura 9y ago
  Yes it's very easy to keep track of who goes first.
girvo 9y ago
Have a roundabout instead. Easy, safer, and less traffic jams. Seems objectively superior to me.
- klodolph 9y ago
  Are you just conveniently omitting the fact that roundabouts are more expensive and require more land, which may already be used by something else?
  - mnw21cam 9y ago
    That is why mini-roundabouts were invented.
    - klodolph 9y ago
      America doesn't really have those... they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe. I can't imagine it not being dangerous.
      - dagw 9y ago
        they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe For the first year or two perhaps, but I wonder if the long term pay-offs might be worth it.
      - Zach_the_Lizard 9y ago
        You can find a few of these small roundabouts in Arlington, VA. There don't seem to be issues with them
      - howard941 9y ago
        I was surprised by three new mini traffic circles in Florida on a new road extension. The approaches are embellished with speed bumps. The bumps took away all enthusiasm for the thing. (Cattlemen Rd in Sarasota)
      - mariojv 9y ago
Marazan 9y ago
Roundabout.

thirdsun 9y ago

That is an intersection that needs traffic lights. And if it's just twice a day, default the less used direction to red and have it switch to green only if a car is actually waiting. As a european 4 way stops seem really inefficient to me. If the intersection isn't that busy a 2 way stop (or no stop at all) favouring the more frequently used road is the obvious choice. If it's a busy 4 way stop however, can you really keep track of when other cars arrived at the stop? And if it's busy enough that you have to yield to the car to your right, chances are that everyone has a car to their right - so vague negotiation between drivers is required. Nobody wins in that scenario. Also, roundabouts are the superior 4 way stops.

__david__ 9y ago
> Also, roundabouts are the superior 4-way stops. Except on the “compact real estate” axis. A plain intersection is always going to be smaller.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I'm sorry, have you seen some of the British roundabouts? Where the "roundabout" is just a tiny circle painted in the middle? I'm sure it's not bigger than your normal intersection by any measurable standard, and at least everyone knows exactly what the priorities are, you literally can't get it wrong.
  - brewdad 9y ago
    We've built something like that on neighborhood streets in the US in the name of "traffic calming". Usually, it's a planter or an island with a single tree. We still put up 2-way or 4-way stop signs though because traffic circles make our heads explode. In the end, all it really accomplishes is making it hard to see other vehicles at the intersection.
klodolph 9y ago
There often isn't a "more frequently used road". If there were, it would probably be a 2-way stop. Figuring out who goes next is not remotely as difficult as you have made it out to be. Where I used to live, I would go through two four-way stops twice each day during peak traffic. There are generally two scenarios when you approach the intersection. In light traffic, you get to the intersection and nobody else is waiting to cross, or it is obvious who got there first. In moderate traffic, you will queue up behind one or possibly two cars. Once you get to the front of the queue, you wait for the cars on your left and right that are already at the front of the queue, and then you go. This is simple because each direction of traffic alternates, and it is reasonably fast because the queues are very short. The real worst case scenario is that during light traffic four cars approach simultaneously, but not only is this extremely rare, but it is not really even a problem when it happens. In my personal experience I have had far, far more problems in US cities on two-way stops when I am bicycling and a driver incorrectly yields when they have right of way. I suspect that most Americans feel the same way about roundabouts that, say, Germans feel about 4-way stops. But please remember that roundabouts require more land and much more capital investment. The tradeoffs in the US are different.
- thirdsun 9y ago
  > Once you get to the front of the queue, you wait for the cars on your left and right that are already at the front of the queue, and then you go. This is simple because each direction of traffic alternates, and it is reasonably fast because the queues are very short. Sounds like a high frequency traffic light, but less explicit. Well, admittedly my experience with 4 way stops is nonexistent (never saw one in europe) and it may simply be a case of not being used to them, but I consider give-way intersections, 2 way stops, roundabouts and finally traffic lights as superior solutions - pretty much in that order and depending on how busy the intersection is. The goal should be to reduce breaking and full stops.
astura 9y ago
Yes it's very easy to keep track of who goes first.

girvo 9y ago

Have a roundabout instead. Easy, safer, and less traffic jams. Seems objectively superior to me.

klodolph 9y ago
Are you just conveniently omitting the fact that roundabouts are more expensive and require more land, which may already be used by something else?
- mnw21cam 9y ago
  That is why mini-roundabouts were invented.
  - klodolph 9y ago
    America doesn't really have those... they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe. I can't imagine it not being dangerous.
    - dagw 9y ago
      they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe For the first year or two perhaps, but I wonder if the long term pay-offs might be worth it.
    - Zach_the_Lizard 9y ago
      You can find a few of these small roundabouts in Arlington, VA. There don't seem to be issues with them
    - howard941 9y ago
      I was surprised by three new mini traffic circles in Florida on a new road extension. The approaches are embellished with speed bumps. The bumps took away all enthusiasm for the thing. (Cattlemen Rd in Sarasota)
    - mariojv 9y ago

Marazan 9y ago

Roundabout.