6 ms·

They do exist in Germany.

Svip 9y ago
Really? I've driven through much of Europe, and I've never seen a 4/all-way stop junction. Edit: That came across as if I was simply trying to dispute your statement, but I am genuinely curious to see an example of this in Germany.
- jwandborg 9y ago
  We have at least one in Sweden, https://goo.gl/maps/kYZpAcQnD3n https://goo.gl/maps/kYZpAcQnD3n, it also has the sign subtext "flervägsstopp" /"multi-road-stop".
alkonaut 9y ago
I'm guessing they actually do exist almost everywhere, but they are rare, and only typical in very slow traffic areas such as residential block intersections (see google map in next post) where you can't motivate building a roundabout or adding lights. Anywhere else they would be replaced by either traffic lights or a roundabout. Most importantly, you would avoid at almost any cost to cross two rural roads in a flat 4 way crossing. This is exactly where there is ample space to make a roundabout.
- phicoh 9y ago
  In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. There are no rules for solving this conflict. Because you cannot have two roads that have priority over each other. The Dutch equivalent of a 4 way stop is a raised intersection. Basically an intersection that is one big speed bump. Traffic is forced to slow down but otherwise normal priority rules apply.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    > In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. In a 4 way the same priority rules apply thatwould have applied if there were no stop signs. Obviously the signs have to make clear to everyone that it is a 4 way stop, so that you don't have 4 cars all thinkning they are in a 2 way stop. This is usually done with an additional sign under the STOP sign. After that it just works like any no-stop intersection, you yield to e.g. the car to the right (Sweden) or the first car to arrive (US) etc.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      The issue is that you can get in a situation with a car on each road. One of the drivers then has to signal the car on his left that he gives up his right of way. This is the same across the EU.
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        That happens all the time. But the point is that it's no worse because of the stop signs. Even without 4 stop signs you can have 4 cars stopped. This isn't a "bad" situation or a deadlock, this is a very safe situation and just means cars will have to crawl out in the crossing while making eye contact and taking some kind of turn driving. Now, if this happens regularly then the junction is much too trafficed for being a planar 4 way - with or without stops. Should be a roundabout in this case. But 4 stopsigns does not make an automatic deadlock. You don't need a rule to decide who goes first in that situation. The same can be seen in any intersection with red lights, as soon as the red lights don't work. You just crawl into the intersection, trying to take turns. It works.
        vertex-four 9y ago
        The thing is, in the Netherlands, you could not use a stop sign for that, because a stop sign does not mean "stop and then crawl out into the intersection while maintaining eye contact with other drivers", it means "stop and give way to the road with the higher priority". A proper traffic code should always provide a consistent way to approach any given sign. If there's no working traffic lights and no stop signs, a different set of rules come into play.
  - dsego 9y ago
    It's the same situation when there are no signs. Then all roads have same priority and you give way to the vehicle on your right. If 4 vehicles come to the intersection at the same time then every vehicle has another vehicle on their right and it's a standstill. If I remember correctly in such situations drivers need to communicate and one vehicle should go first to resolve the situation.
Karnickel 9y ago
I won't dispute it because of the general "If you've never seen a black swan, is that proof that none exists? (No)" fallacy, but speaking as a German, I cannot remember having seen one in Germany, ever. So even if one exists it's an exceedingly rare thing. When I lived in the US I always found it unnecessary that everybody has to stop. In Germany we always have a "main" road and a "secondary" road, and those on the main road don't have to stop. That priority pattern is kept from major roads to tiny roads. Then there's the "right before left" rule when the roads are equal - creating a priority without signs and without "everybody has to stop" rule.
- klodolph 9y ago
  In the places where I see four-way stop, there is some constant but not heavy traffic during parts of the day, so if you had a primary / secondary road with only a two-way stop, the secondary road would not flow well. However, the traffic was not high enough to warrant a signal. This makes sense to me, and I don't see how other systems would be anything but worse. A signal would have a short cycle and only delay people during large parts of the day, a two-way stop would cause problems in one direction, it seems excessive to tear out a bunch of road to put concrete in, etc. It is of course very natural that the roads in the US are built to completely different standards than Germany, given how incredibly different the layout of US cities are from German ones, broadly speaking.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Almost every such intersection in Germany was replaced with roundabouts, afaik. Perfect use case for them.
  - squiggleblaz 9y ago
    Australia is more similar to the US than Germany, but we don't have four way stops here; they case is provided for by roundabouts. Even still perhaps we have less because we rarely have pure grids.
- nraynaud 9y ago
  I went to check on google maps, I suspect I misremembered and it was a 4 way priority loosing (downwards triangle), but the road markings are mostly worn out (but I think they are 4 dashed lines, not continuous), and Germany being Germany, I can't use google street view. St Peter Strasse / Von der Tann Strasse in Rorhbach in Heidelberg. Sorry for causing a stir with my bad memory, I remembered that from my French point of view that would cause a deadlock.
Xylakant 9y ago
I don't think so. The literal text from the StVo for the STOP sign (VZ 206) is Ge- oder Verbot 1. Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, muss anhalten und Vorfahrt gewähren. And that strongly implies that at least one of the other streets has the right of way. I've also never seen one.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  This is the same in the Czech Republic and the behavior should be the same as if there are no stop signs (except that you have to stop). One of the drivers have to give way to the one on his left and after he goes through, it's all clear.
usrusr 9y ago
Never seen one and I suspect that it would be illegal. The rules that govern which sign can go where in Germany are very detailed. And they are broken all the time, so I'm really not disputing the existence of counterexamples.

Svip 9y ago

Really? I've driven through much of Europe, and I've never seen a 4/all-way stop junction. Edit: That came across as if I was simply trying to dispute your statement, but I am genuinely curious to see an example of this in Germany.

jwandborg 9y ago
We have at least one in Sweden, https://goo.gl/maps/kYZpAcQnD3n https://goo.gl/maps/kYZpAcQnD3n, it also has the sign subtext "flervägsstopp" /"multi-road-stop".

alkonaut 9y ago

I'm guessing they actually do exist almost everywhere, but they are rare, and only typical in very slow traffic areas such as residential block intersections (see google map in next post) where you can't motivate building a roundabout or adding lights. Anywhere else they would be replaced by either traffic lights or a roundabout. Most importantly, you would avoid at almost any cost to cross two rural roads in a flat 4 way crossing. This is exactly where there is ample space to make a roundabout.

phicoh 9y ago
In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. There are no rules for solving this conflict. Because you cannot have two roads that have priority over each other. The Dutch equivalent of a 4 way stop is a raised intersection. Basically an intersection that is one big speed bump. Traffic is forced to slow down but otherwise normal priority rules apply.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  > In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. In a 4 way the same priority rules apply thatwould have applied if there were no stop signs. Obviously the signs have to make clear to everyone that it is a 4 way stop, so that you don't have 4 cars all thinkning they are in a 2 way stop. This is usually done with an additional sign under the STOP sign. After that it just works like any no-stop intersection, you yield to e.g. the car to the right (Sweden) or the first car to arrive (US) etc.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    The issue is that you can get in a situation with a car on each road. One of the drivers then has to signal the car on his left that he gives up his right of way. This is the same across the EU.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      That happens all the time. But the point is that it's no worse because of the stop signs. Even without 4 stop signs you can have 4 cars stopped. This isn't a "bad" situation or a deadlock, this is a very safe situation and just means cars will have to crawl out in the crossing while making eye contact and taking some kind of turn driving. Now, if this happens regularly then the junction is much too trafficed for being a planar 4 way - with or without stops. Should be a roundabout in this case. But 4 stopsigns does not make an automatic deadlock. You don't need a rule to decide who goes first in that situation. The same can be seen in any intersection with red lights, as soon as the red lights don't work. You just crawl into the intersection, trying to take turns. It works.
      - vertex-four 9y ago
        The thing is, in the Netherlands, you could not use a stop sign for that, because a stop sign does not mean "stop and then crawl out into the intersection while maintaining eye contact with other drivers", it means "stop and give way to the road with the higher priority". A proper traffic code should always provide a consistent way to approach any given sign. If there's no working traffic lights and no stop signs, a different set of rules come into play.
- dsego 9y ago
  It's the same situation when there are no signs. Then all roads have same priority and you give way to the vehicle on your right. If 4 vehicles come to the intersection at the same time then every vehicle has another vehicle on their right and it's a standstill. If I remember correctly in such situations drivers need to communicate and one vehicle should go first to resolve the situation.

Karnickel 9y ago

I won't dispute it because of the general "If you've never seen a black swan, is that proof that none exists? (No)" fallacy, but speaking as a German, I cannot remember having seen one in Germany, ever. So even if one exists it's an exceedingly rare thing. When I lived in the US I always found it unnecessary that everybody has to stop. In Germany we always have a "main" road and a "secondary" road, and those on the main road don't have to stop. That priority pattern is kept from major roads to tiny roads. Then there's the "right before left" rule when the roads are equal - creating a priority without signs and without "everybody has to stop" rule.

klodolph 9y ago
In the places where I see four-way stop, there is some constant but not heavy traffic during parts of the day, so if you had a primary / secondary road with only a two-way stop, the secondary road would not flow well. However, the traffic was not high enough to warrant a signal. This makes sense to me, and I don't see how other systems would be anything but worse. A signal would have a short cycle and only delay people during large parts of the day, a two-way stop would cause problems in one direction, it seems excessive to tear out a bunch of road to put concrete in, etc. It is of course very natural that the roads in the US are built to completely different standards than Germany, given how incredibly different the layout of US cities are from German ones, broadly speaking.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Almost every such intersection in Germany was replaced with roundabouts, afaik. Perfect use case for them.
- squiggleblaz 9y ago
  Australia is more similar to the US than Germany, but we don't have four way stops here; they case is provided for by roundabouts. Even still perhaps we have less because we rarely have pure grids.
nraynaud 9y ago
I went to check on google maps, I suspect I misremembered and it was a 4 way priority loosing (downwards triangle), but the road markings are mostly worn out (but I think they are 4 dashed lines, not continuous), and Germany being Germany, I can't use google street view. St Peter Strasse / Von der Tann Strasse in Rorhbach in Heidelberg. Sorry for causing a stir with my bad memory, I remembered that from my French point of view that would cause a deadlock.

Xylakant 9y ago

I don't think so. The literal text from the StVo for the STOP sign (VZ 206) is Ge- oder Verbot 1. Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, muss anhalten und Vorfahrt gewähren. And that strongly implies that at least one of the other streets has the right of way. I've also never seen one.

TomMarius 9y ago
This is the same in the Czech Republic and the behavior should be the same as if there are no stop signs (except that you have to stop). One of the drivers have to give way to the one on his left and after he goes through, it's all clear.

usrusr 9y ago

Never seen one and I suspect that it would be illegal. The rules that govern which sign can go where in Germany are very detailed. And they are broken all the time, so I'm really not disputing the existence of counterexamples.