6 ms·

Concept of private property is as old as civilisation. Whereas taxation (at current depth and scale) is barely 50yrs old and already showing cracks.

dragonwriter 9y ago
Conversely, the concept of taxation is as old as civilization, and private property at current depth and scale is barely as old as the most recent extension of the rights associated with copyright in the DMCA, and already showing cracks.
- wav-part 9y ago
  You are talking to a libertarian and you assumed a right granted by state is a private property. Why ? The private property I referred is land right, which IS as old as civilisation and have been acceptable by most humans ever. Since most democracies are less than 200yrs old, the taxation cannot have been as old as civilisation. When 100 people form a camp, they implement property rights before taxation. Historically taxations have been imposed by distant rulers not socially decided at local level.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Since most democracies are less than 200yrs old, the taxation cannot have been as old as civilisation. That would be true if the concept of taxation was dependent on the concept of democracy (and if it was correct that democracy was less than 200 years old, which is off by around an order of magnitude), which it is quite obviously not; taxation long precedes democracy. > Historically taxations have been imposed by distant rulers Historically, taxation (until fairly recently, in-kind; money taxes as the primary form is fairly new) has been imposed at every level from small bands to vast empires; it certainly is not correct that they've normally been imposed by distant rulers.
    - wav-part 9y ago
      We are taking about subset of taxation not all taxation, namely "politically constructed taxation" as described by ajnin. Historically, taxation has been imposed at every level from small bands to vast empires Agreed. it certainly is not correct that they've normally been imposed by distant rulers Then by whom is it normally imposed ? Give an example of a historic taxation voted and imposed by a small-band/.../vast-empire on itself. Coming back to the topic, my claim is that private property social contract have been more stable than taxation (the social-contract version).
ajnin 9y ago
One of the oldest forms of writing that we know of, Babylonian tablets, are mostly about goods exchanges and paying taxes. I think that you assessment that taxation is a new thing is blatantly wrong.
- wav-part 9y ago
  Taxation is old. Democratically-decided taxation is new.
  - SubiculumCode 9y ago
    Then democratically-decided property law is new too.

dragonwriter 9y ago

Conversely, the concept of taxation is as old as civilization, and private property at current depth and scale is barely as old as the most recent extension of the rights associated with copyright in the DMCA, and already showing cracks.

wav-part 9y ago
You are talking to a libertarian and you assumed a right granted by state is a private property. Why ? The private property I referred is land right, which IS as old as civilisation and have been acceptable by most humans ever. Since most democracies are less than 200yrs old, the taxation cannot have been as old as civilisation. When 100 people form a camp, they implement property rights before taxation. Historically taxations have been imposed by distant rulers not socially decided at local level.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Since most democracies are less than 200yrs old, the taxation cannot have been as old as civilisation. That would be true if the concept of taxation was dependent on the concept of democracy (and if it was correct that democracy was less than 200 years old, which is off by around an order of magnitude), which it is quite obviously not; taxation long precedes democracy. > Historically taxations have been imposed by distant rulers Historically, taxation (until fairly recently, in-kind; money taxes as the primary form is fairly new) has been imposed at every level from small bands to vast empires; it certainly is not correct that they've normally been imposed by distant rulers.
  - wav-part 9y ago
    We are taking about subset of taxation not all taxation, namely "politically constructed taxation" as described by ajnin. Historically, taxation has been imposed at every level from small bands to vast empires Agreed. it certainly is not correct that they've normally been imposed by distant rulers Then by whom is it normally imposed ? Give an example of a historic taxation voted and imposed by a small-band/.../vast-empire on itself. Coming back to the topic, my claim is that private property social contract have been more stable than taxation (the social-contract version).

ajnin 9y ago

One of the oldest forms of writing that we know of, Babylonian tablets, are mostly about goods exchanges and paying taxes. I think that you assessment that taxation is a new thing is blatantly wrong.

wav-part 9y ago
Taxation is old. Democratically-decided taxation is new.
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  Then democratically-decided property law is new too.