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Why use a blockchain instead of a database? Because multiple organizations are involved and each wants to control the database. If a thing moves across multipl

Why use a blockchain instead of a database? Because multiple organizations are involved and each wants to control the database. If a thing moves across multiple organizations then you can make a case for a blockchain application, logistics is an obvious example, but there are others like asset (expensive paintings / vintage wine) provenance. https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/ups-bets-on-blockchain-as-the-future-of-the-trillion-dollar-shipping-industry/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/ups-bets-on-blockchain-as-...

CPLX 9y ago
Sure. But this has been going on for awhile, what's the example of someone actually doing any of these things in a way that creates real efficiency?
- 0x4f3759df 9y ago
  I feel like you are moving the goalpost. edit: If UPS doesn't count then nothing is going to count.
  - CPLX 9y ago
    The guy said it seems interesting in theory but asked where the actual value was. You replied with some theoretical examples. Lots of things are interesting in theory. Bitcoin is about to end its first decade though. Asking where the actual value comes from seems on topic to me.
    - ruiquelhas 9y ago
      I don't know about so called blockchain projects like ethereum, but bitcoin has value because it has inelastic demand. There are a lot of underserved people out there that need bitcoin, regardless of its value, in their daily lives because they can't use fiat currency for things like buying quality drugs online, getting rid of ransomware, laundering money, etc. Hell, if these don't pass the ideological test, just ask someone from Venezuela why do they need bitcoin.
      - CPLX 9y ago
        I'll bite. Why does someone from Venezuela need Bitcoin?
        ruiquelhas 9y ago
        You have some good answers here: https://apnews.com/f7ccc4ea283746f28b261cabeaf8f0c5 https://apnews.com/f7ccc4ea283746f28b261cabeaf8f0c5
        Goladus 9y ago
        It's not clear that the Venezuelan case is due to inherent property of Bitcoin, or merely that Bitcoin just has good timing and is the most conveniently available alternative to cash out of a tanking currency. Basically, saying that bitcoin can (at the moment) function as a better currency than one that is completely failing is valid and interesting, but not exactly a ringing endorsement.
  - TylerE 9y ago
    Don't think so. You said $x is great for $y. He asked you to show an example of $x actually solving $y.
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    > We are now about eight years into block chain and beyond its one core use cases there is almost nothing. Whatever value has been delivered seems extremely minor compared to the vast sums of money being spent, making this perhaps the worst ROI I've ever seen. > Can someone provide a counter example? What are people doing in the real world with this stuff? What? Where did they move the goalpost.
  - rrecuero 9y ago
    Exactly, scalability is a moving target. You can't expect to match VISA transactions the first day
    - joosters 9y ago
      Some progress in eight years would be good, though!
- DennisP 9y ago
  That won't happen in a substantial way until scaling issues are fixed. On Ethereum, there are at least half a dozen projects that tackle different aspects of the problem. The first phase of sharding, for example, should be good for a 100X improvement; there's a published spec, a testnet is on the way, and it can be rolled out without a fork, so there's a good chance it'll happen this year. Some other chains are working the problem in their own ways, I'm just less familiar with them.
spookthesunset 9y ago
This is a solved problem. All interested parties form an independent business entity and assign ownership to that. All problems related to inter-company collaboration are people and organizational problems not technical problems. Blockchain solves nothing in this space.
- rrecuero 9y ago
  The main benefit of blockchain is that it is trustless and censorship-resistant. You don't need to trust any business entities. You can transact with someone in a zero trust environment on the other side of the world
  - qyv 9y ago
    Just because you use a blockchain doesn't make your implementation trustless, nor censorship resistant.
    - ruiquelhas 9y ago
      Actually, according to the original definition - https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.h#L795-L800 https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a99... - it does, since blockchain is bitcoin (and vice-versa), and as far as anyone can tell, currently it is indeed trustless and censorship resistant. The problem is that some people adopted blockchain as some kind of weird gimmick to wrap extraordinary claims such as the ones in the original post and promote scams (altcoins, appcoins, whatever).
  - jhwang5 9y ago
    Not sure about censorship-resistance. Bitcoin transactions can be traced back to some identity, especially if the payer's Bitcoins were originally funded with fiat currency that came from the banking system.
    - ruiquelhas 9y ago
      That does not say anything about censorship resistance, because it does not mean the transactions can be reversed (on the contrary). That's a problem of anonymity (or lack thereof).

CPLX 9y ago

Sure. But this has been going on for awhile, what's the example of someone actually doing any of these things in a way that creates real efficiency?

0x4f3759df 9y ago
I feel like you are moving the goalpost. edit: If UPS doesn't count then nothing is going to count.
- CPLX 9y ago
  The guy said it seems interesting in theory but asked where the actual value was. You replied with some theoretical examples. Lots of things are interesting in theory. Bitcoin is about to end its first decade though. Asking where the actual value comes from seems on topic to me.
  - ruiquelhas 9y ago
    I don't know about so called blockchain projects like ethereum, but bitcoin has value because it has inelastic demand. There are a lot of underserved people out there that need bitcoin, regardless of its value, in their daily lives because they can't use fiat currency for things like buying quality drugs online, getting rid of ransomware, laundering money, etc. Hell, if these don't pass the ideological test, just ask someone from Venezuela why do they need bitcoin.
    - CPLX 9y ago
      I'll bite. Why does someone from Venezuela need Bitcoin?
      - ruiquelhas 9y ago
        You have some good answers here: https://apnews.com/f7ccc4ea283746f28b261cabeaf8f0c5 https://apnews.com/f7ccc4ea283746f28b261cabeaf8f0c5
        Goladus 9y ago
        It's not clear that the Venezuelan case is due to inherent property of Bitcoin, or merely that Bitcoin just has good timing and is the most conveniently available alternative to cash out of a tanking currency. Basically, saying that bitcoin can (at the moment) function as a better currency than one that is completely failing is valid and interesting, but not exactly a ringing endorsement.
- TylerE 9y ago
  Don't think so. You said $x is great for $y. He asked you to show an example of $x actually solving $y.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  > We are now about eight years into block chain and beyond its one core use cases there is almost nothing. Whatever value has been delivered seems extremely minor compared to the vast sums of money being spent, making this perhaps the worst ROI I've ever seen. > Can someone provide a counter example? What are people doing in the real world with this stuff? What? Where did they move the goalpost.
- rrecuero 9y ago
  Exactly, scalability is a moving target. You can't expect to match VISA transactions the first day
  - joosters 9y ago
    Some progress in eight years would be good, though!
DennisP 9y ago
That won't happen in a substantial way until scaling issues are fixed. On Ethereum, there are at least half a dozen projects that tackle different aspects of the problem. The first phase of sharding, for example, should be good for a 100X improvement; there's a published spec, a testnet is on the way, and it can be rolled out without a fork, so there's a good chance it'll happen this year. Some other chains are working the problem in their own ways, I'm just less familiar with them.

spookthesunset 9y ago

This is a solved problem. All interested parties form an independent business entity and assign ownership to that. All problems related to inter-company collaboration are people and organizational problems not technical problems. Blockchain solves nothing in this space.

rrecuero 9y ago
The main benefit of blockchain is that it is trustless and censorship-resistant. You don't need to trust any business entities. You can transact with someone in a zero trust environment on the other side of the world
- qyv 9y ago
  Just because you use a blockchain doesn't make your implementation trustless, nor censorship resistant.
  - ruiquelhas 9y ago
    Actually, according to the original definition - https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.h#L795-L800 https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a99... - it does, since blockchain is bitcoin (and vice-versa), and as far as anyone can tell, currently it is indeed trustless and censorship resistant. The problem is that some people adopted blockchain as some kind of weird gimmick to wrap extraordinary claims such as the ones in the original post and promote scams (altcoins, appcoins, whatever).
- jhwang5 9y ago
  Not sure about censorship-resistance. Bitcoin transactions can be traced back to some identity, especially if the payer's Bitcoins were originally funded with fiat currency that came from the banking system.
  - ruiquelhas 9y ago
    That does not say anything about censorship resistance, because it does not mean the transactions can be reversed (on the contrary). That's a problem of anonymity (or lack thereof).