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> And yet I can't stop wondering why no one ever write articles about much larger group of autistic people whom fate is much worse, IMHO Second half of this fi

> And yet I can't stop wondering why no one ever write articles about much larger group of autistic people whom fate is much worse, IMHO Second half of this first: > autistic people whom fate is much worse, IMHO It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at a time". I'm one of those miserable "bullied in childhood" types and I'm still thankful that I'm able to participate in society and pursue my interests. A severely disabled person will never be able to do this. I can think up ethical frameworks that'd result in the judgment that social misfits have it worse than extremely disabled individuals, but they'd be tough to justify on various levels. > no one ever write articles [about nerds] They do, if you know where to look[1][2]... but they're unpopular, for various reasons (cultural zeitgeists, also consider the nature of popularity/zeitgeists and how a "nerd" might fit into that). 1: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664 https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664 2: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/

Will_Parker 9y ago
> It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at a time". On a bad day I spend 10 or 12 hours at a time watching gaming streams on Twitch, I'm not sure it's so fundamentally different. (I'm high functioning enough to succeed in my career and fake it in social situations, but not enough to attract a mate.)
- magic_beans 9y ago
  Don't underestimate hygiene and fashionable dressing. Don't call a person a "mate."
  - Will_Parker 9y ago
    3 : one of a pair: such as a : either member of a couple and especially a married couple b : either member of a breeding pair of animals c : either of two matched objects Seriously, what's wrong with that?
    - travisjungroth 9y ago
      The phrase “attract a mate” is used more for animals than people. When you use it to talk about yourself, it has a tone of referring to the person you’re looking for like an animal. (Same for “breed” and “female”). If you said “find a partner”, “find a match”, “attract a partner”, “get a boyfriend/girlfriend”, it wouldn’t have the same meaning and would be less off-putting.
      - lurr 9y ago
        I don't think saying "find a mate" on hacker news is the problem. Why nitpick trivial things like this on someone you have never met?
        wand3r 9y ago
        Not op. I think they were attempting to help by socializing them to common parlance. Potentially because IRL they mentioned they dont have a sognificant other it could be because of things like this. Dont know, not op. Think it was meant to be helpful
        Will_Parker 9y ago
        I have had girlfriends and significant others. What I really wanted to find was a mate. I.e. a pair bond for life with whom I could be myself, and not a social actor.
        travisjungroth 9y ago
        Only because he asked: > Seriously, what's wrong with that? Maybe he was being rhetorical, but I didn't read it that way.
wst_ 9y ago
I am sorry if you read my comment literally. When I said the names above I've got in mind something exactly opposite. That they are often used while they should not be. That people should understand better, but instead they choose to use names. I should better shape my thoughts. As for the fate... I think we should change the angle a little bit. Autistic brain walks different paths, as you know already. The transit driver may not care what his peers are thinking about his interest. There are no peers anyway. I could assume that fate of the closest relatives is not an easy one, but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his "special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day - this is what keeps him satisfied. You may be happy about social interaction you have been able to pursue. But there are plenty of others who don't care about that aspect of life. Even more, they value a solitude better than being with the crowd. For a neuro-typical person his state of mind may be treated as disability, for him it might be a blessing. On the other hand many autistic adults, especially if they aren't diagnosed (or not properly so), have a lot doubts. They are aware about their peers, social circles forming above and below but very often out of reach, about loneliness. They have to live their lives with constant feeling that there is something wrong with them. I know people, and read about them too, an adults that got revelation after stumbling upon ASD traits list. Many claim this event was a life changer.
- Nav_Panel 9y ago
  > When I said the names above I've got in mind something exactly opposite I wasn't making a judgment about the terms "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons", I was merely reaching for a shorthand to refer to the groups you were discussing. I could have substituted in "people with mild autism" and have made the same point. > but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his "special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day Let's consider this. The original poster points at something interesting: > There is a huge amount of work to do in this area still. Most of these kids with incredible abilities are not receiving the help and support they need in order to ever be in a position where they can join society and use them for good. The OP believes that there exists an idea of goodness extending beyond oneself, relating to joining society and acting. Perhaps what we, as members of society, want is not a happy life, but a meaningful life[1]. Happiness is relatively easy in comparison, we have drugs that can provide it on demand (opiates, for example). Religious practices were aware of this divide between happiness and meaningfulness, with the most obvious example being Protestantism, whose practices directly support the idea that but hard work = a good life. But, it's ultimately up to you to decide to what ends you want to live your life. Perhaps the fact that you have the ability to make this decision, while a low-functioning person does not, is what makes the original claim (about high-functioning individuals having a worse fate than low-functioning individuals) absurd. 1: http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6ff144e9cd581c8c30af2d67.pdf?1514839873 http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6f... EDIT: if you're up for some reading, I was informed of this essay[2] by philosopher Thomas Nagel which addresses some of these topics: > Suppose an intelligent person receives a brain injury that reduces him to the mental condition of a contented infant, and that such desires as remain to him can be satisfied by a custodian, so that he is free from care. Such a development would be widely regarded as a severe misfortune, not only for his friends and relations, or for society, but also and primarily, for the person himself. This does not mean that a contented infant is unfortunate. The intelligent adult who has been reduced to this condition is the subject of the misfortune. He is the one we pity, though of course he does not mind his condition. It is in fact the same condition he was in at the age of three months, except that he is bigger. If we did not pity him then, why pity him now; in any case, who is there to pity? The intelligent adult has disappeared, and for a creature like the one before us, happiness consists in a full stomach and a dry diaper. > If these objections are invalid, it must be because they rest on a mistaken assumption about the temporal reelation between the subject of a misfortune and the circumstances which constitute it. If, instead of concentrating exclusively on the oversized baby before us, we consider the person he was, and the person he could be now, then his reduction to this state and the cancellation of his natural adult development constitute a perfectly intelligible catastrophe. 2: http://dbanach.com/death.htm http://dbanach.com/death.htm
lurr 9y ago
> It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at a time". You don't? The kid sitting there for 10-12 hours, who knows how he experiences that. It's externally sad, but we don't know if he's okay with how he experiences things. The other guy who sits at home contemplating suicide, we know how horrible that is.

Will_Parker 9y ago

> It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at a time". On a bad day I spend 10 or 12 hours at a time watching gaming streams on Twitch, I'm not sure it's so fundamentally different. (I'm high functioning enough to succeed in my career and fake it in social situations, but not enough to attract a mate.)

magic_beans 9y ago
Don't underestimate hygiene and fashionable dressing. Don't call a person a "mate."
- Will_Parker 9y ago
  3 : one of a pair: such as a : either member of a couple and especially a married couple b : either member of a breeding pair of animals c : either of two matched objects Seriously, what's wrong with that?
  - travisjungroth 9y ago
    The phrase “attract a mate” is used more for animals than people. When you use it to talk about yourself, it has a tone of referring to the person you’re looking for like an animal. (Same for “breed” and “female”). If you said “find a partner”, “find a match”, “attract a partner”, “get a boyfriend/girlfriend”, it wouldn’t have the same meaning and would be less off-putting.
    - lurr 9y ago
      I don't think saying "find a mate" on hacker news is the problem. Why nitpick trivial things like this on someone you have never met?
      - wand3r 9y ago
        Not op. I think they were attempting to help by socializing them to common parlance. Potentially because IRL they mentioned they dont have a sognificant other it could be because of things like this. Dont know, not op. Think it was meant to be helpful
        Will_Parker 9y ago
        I have had girlfriends and significant others. What I really wanted to find was a mate. I.e. a pair bond for life with whom I could be myself, and not a social actor.
      - travisjungroth 9y ago
        Only because he asked: > Seriously, what's wrong with that? Maybe he was being rhetorical, but I didn't read it that way.

wst_ 9y ago

I am sorry if you read my comment literally. When I said the names above I've got in mind something exactly opposite. That they are often used while they should not be. That people should understand better, but instead they choose to use names. I should better shape my thoughts. As for the fate... I think we should change the angle a little bit. Autistic brain walks different paths, as you know already. The transit driver may not care what his peers are thinking about his interest. There are no peers anyway. I could assume that fate of the closest relatives is not an easy one, but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his "special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day - this is what keeps him satisfied. You may be happy about social interaction you have been able to pursue. But there are plenty of others who don't care about that aspect of life. Even more, they value a solitude better than being with the crowd. For a neuro-typical person his state of mind may be treated as disability, for him it might be a blessing. On the other hand many autistic adults, especially if they aren't diagnosed (or not properly so), have a lot doubts. They are aware about their peers, social circles forming above and below but very often out of reach, about loneliness. They have to live their lives with constant feeling that there is something wrong with them. I know people, and read about them too, an adults that got revelation after stumbling upon ASD traits list. Many claim this event was a life changer.

Nav_Panel 9y ago
> When I said the names above I've got in mind something exactly opposite I wasn't making a judgment about the terms "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons", I was merely reaching for a shorthand to refer to the groups you were discussing. I could have substituted in "people with mild autism" and have made the same point. > but the transit driver himself might be a happy person. He can follow his "special interests", he is focused, he's doing what he likes whole day Let's consider this. The original poster points at something interesting: > There is a huge amount of work to do in this area still. Most of these kids with incredible abilities are not receiving the help and support they need in order to ever be in a position where they can join society and use them for good. The OP believes that there exists an idea of goodness extending beyond oneself, relating to joining society and acting. Perhaps what we, as members of society, want is not a happy life, but a meaningful life[1]. Happiness is relatively easy in comparison, we have drugs that can provide it on demand (opiates, for example). Religious practices were aware of this divide between happiness and meaningfulness, with the most obvious example being Protestantism, whose practices directly support the idea that but hard work = a good life. But, it's ultimately up to you to decide to what ends you want to live your life. Perhaps the fact that you have the ability to make this decision, while a low-functioning person does not, is what makes the original claim (about high-functioning individuals having a worse fate than low-functioning individuals) absurd. 1: http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6ff144e9cd581c8c30af2d67.pdf?1514839873 http://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/1547772/cf4bc2ae6f... EDIT: if you're up for some reading, I was informed of this essay[2] by philosopher Thomas Nagel which addresses some of these topics: > Suppose an intelligent person receives a brain injury that reduces him to the mental condition of a contented infant, and that such desires as remain to him can be satisfied by a custodian, so that he is free from care. Such a development would be widely regarded as a severe misfortune, not only for his friends and relations, or for society, but also and primarily, for the person himself. This does not mean that a contented infant is unfortunate. The intelligent adult who has been reduced to this condition is the subject of the misfortune. He is the one we pity, though of course he does not mind his condition. It is in fact the same condition he was in at the age of three months, except that he is bigger. If we did not pity him then, why pity him now; in any case, who is there to pity? The intelligent adult has disappeared, and for a creature like the one before us, happiness consists in a full stomach and a dry diaper. > If these objections are invalid, it must be because they rest on a mistaken assumption about the temporal reelation between the subject of a misfortune and the circumstances which constitute it. If, instead of concentrating exclusively on the oversized baby before us, we consider the person he was, and the person he could be now, then his reduction to this state and the cancellation of his natural adult development constitute a perfectly intelligible catastrophe. 2: http://dbanach.com/death.htm http://dbanach.com/death.htm

lurr 9y ago

> It's astounding to me that you find "creeps, weirdos, nerds and morons without friends" to be a worse fate than "On a bad day he just sits and pretends he is a transit driver, going through the routes in his mind, for 10 or 12 hours at a time". You don't? The kid sitting there for 10-12 hours, who knows how he experiences that. It's externally sad, but we don't know if he's okay with how he experiences things. The other guy who sits at home contemplating suicide, we know how horrible that is.