8 ms·

I had a similar experience yesterday when my wife related a near-kidnapping that happened in a grocery store. It seems that a pair of child-traffickers attempte

I had a similar experience yesterday when my wife related a near-kidnapping that happened in a grocery store. It seems that a pair of child-traffickers attempted to take a baby out of a shopping cart. It was a male/female duo. (Side note: NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. In this case, the parent was right beside the cart, moving groceries from the cart to the conveyor belt. It was a brazen act on the part of the kidnappers.) In the past, stories like that would make me angry, but that's about it. Now that I have a kid, my brain plays through the scene with him as the baby being taken. My response is violence. I'm not a violent person at all, but I think I'd probably kill those kidnappers in the heat of the moment if I realized what was happening. I mean I would find anything to use as a weapon, and I'd just beat the everliving crap out of them. It's probably the worst reaction I could have, as it would mean me spending my life in jail, my son growing up without a dad, etc. Just a terrible, terrible decision, really. But I think that's what I'd do in the moment unless I could manage to overcome emotions with reason. It's hard to express how having a kid changes your perspective on things like this.

somebodyfree 9y ago
This did not actually happen: http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/23/ye-olde-ikea-sex-traffickers http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/23/ye-olde-ikea-sex-traff...
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Apologizing for the source, but sometimes it does happen: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2123200/man-arrested-after-three-year-old-girl-snatched-in-front-of-her-mums-eyes-in-morrisons-store/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2123200/man-arrested-after-thr...
  - AznHisoka 9y ago
    Yep, this happens all the time in some parts of China as well.
  - christophilus 9y ago
    Yeah. Here's a similar one: http://abc7chicago.com/news/possible-child-abduction-at-grocery-store-caught-on-camera/1559679/ http://abc7chicago.com/news/possible-child-abduction-at-groc... The story in my original comment was reported in a local news paper's website, which my wife assumed was reliable... So who knows.
  - sambe 9y ago
    Or does it? http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15255796._I_was_told_that_if_I_was_found_guilty_I_could_be_facing_15_years_in_prison____said_dad_of_four_accused_of_Blackburn_Morrisons__attempted_child_abduction/ http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15255796._I_was_to...
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Good find. Have another one. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098608/Kidnap-attempt-Walmart-Girl-7-tells-moment-man-tried-abduct-her.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098608/Kidnap-attem... There are plenty of these examples over the years. It is not that it does not happen, it does happen, but it is pretty rare. My point was that you can not simply dismiss all these cases out of hand as fantasy.
      - kohanz 9y ago
        Agreed, it's rare, but does happen: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/child-s-disappearance-still-a-mystery-22-years-on-1.1327157 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/child-s-disap...
      - sambe 9y ago
        This person is also accused, not found guilty (from the link, and no quick Google turning up a conviction). It does very rarely happen. But even of the subset of events that aren't totally fabricated, many turn out to be more innocent than they are made out to be. People getting their worldview from these sources are going to be unnecessarily worrisome about such things, which is really the point of the grandparent.
      - dsnuh 9y ago
        I dismiss all of these cases out of hand as fantasy, because the chances of this actually happening to me are as close to fantasy as being eaten by a shark while I am struck by lightning.
- christophilus 9y ago
  I'm glad to hear that this story was fake! I never looked it up, just heard her retelling of it. Regardless, the story wasn't the point of my comment. The reaction I have as a dad vs pre-parenthood is the point. Where I live is the sex-trafficking capital of my state, which probably heightens my reactions, too. The problem is real and pervasive, fake news not withstanding.
  - Reedx 9y ago
    Well, it's real like getting struck by lightning is real. The odds are extremely low. Everyone could let their kids walk to school and chances are nothing bad will happen. Though it may lead to those kids being a bit healthier, more independent and more confident. And less likely to die in a car crash - which is far, far more probable than kidnapping.
    - christophilus 9y ago
      I agree with your sentiment. It's more common than lightning strikes, though still super remote. But I'm not planning on sending my kids out to play in thunderstorms, and I'm not planning on leaving them unattended in public places until they're of a certain age. Walking to school is an interesting scenario. I hate the car, so I'd probably walk with them or ride bikes together. Side story: My dad had a friend who was almost kidnapped while on the way to school. The only reason it didn't succeed is that my dad and another friend grabbed their friend by the ankles while the guy in the car was tugging on their friend's arms. The kids all screamed bloody murder, and the men in the car gave up and drove off. In most areas of life I like to think that I let statistics drive my thinking (e.g. I don't try to beat the stock market no matter how bad things look, unless I'm gambling for the fun of it). But in the case of kids, man... it's just much harder to overcome emotional biases.
      - opo 9y ago
        >...It's more common than lightning strikes, though still super remote. It doesn't look that way: >...During the study year, there were an estimated 115 stereotypical kidnappings, defined as abductions perpetrated by a stranger or slight acquaintance and involving a child who was transported 50 or more miles, detained overnight, held for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed. http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/MC19.pdf http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/MC19.pdf So, 115 children were abducted by strangers that year. The national weather service estimates that 300 people are hit by lightning a year. http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml Like you said, it's hard for people to overcome emotional biases. As a comparison, sharing a bed with a baby (which many people think is safe) is implicated in thousands of deaths a year: >...After analyzing data on 8,207 infant deaths from 24 states that occurred between 2004 and 2012, researchers determined that nearly 74 percent of deaths in babies younger than 4 months occurred in a bed-sharing situation, according to the study published Monday in Pediatrics. >Among older infants – those aged 4 months to 364 days – the rate was slightly lower at nearly 59 percent. https://www.today.com/health/co-sleeping-linked-infant-deaths-bed-sharing-remains-popular-1D79912957 https://www.today.com/health/co-sleeping-linked-infant-death... As another comparison, over 1,600 children under 15 years of age die each year in car accidents. http://asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety-facts/road-crash-statistics http://asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safet...
betenoire 9y ago
> NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. I don't understand this approach. Alternatively, find a place to live, and a lifestyle to live, that lets your children develop without your anxiety weighing them down. You leave them unattended for hours and hours at a time while you sleep. The only difference your mind isn't racing with potential threats, it's asleep. I don't know. all kids are different, mine too.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  My understanding, and what I remember from some brief research, is that kidnappings by strangers are incredibly rare. This would mean that the widespread fear we see nowadays is very disproportionate, and likely due to a variety of other social factors and not some actual underlying danger. Can anyone provide a quick corroboration/correction on this?
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    You are correct—it's around 100 stranger abductions per year in the U.S. http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/31/kidnapping-stats http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/31/kidnapping-stats https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-missing-children/2013/05/10/efee398c-b8b4-11e2-aa9e-a02b765ff0ea_story.html?utm_term=.c4581f155af5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-mis...
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      Thanks for the data/links. Glad to know it actually isn't a major issue.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  > NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. Yeah, I have 4 kids, and this right here, in my opinion is the core of the current trend to overparent. Let your kids play where you played. Let them have their own life outside of your control and influence. There is something very unhealthy about the way we have started viewing children and childhood in the USA.
astura 9y ago
>NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. In this case, the parent was right beside the cart, moving groceries from the cart to the conveyor belt. Never? Come on, how far are we going to take this? Not sending them to school so you can stay home and watch for kidnappers? Never sending them to grandpa's house because grandpa might bring the kids to the grocery store and turn around for a second to pick up some carrots? Perspective! Assuming that its not a fabricated story the risk of this sort of kidnapping is so incredibly low it might as well be zero. This sort of anxiety about it is unhealthy and unproductive. Never bring them outside because a stranger may snatch them out of a stroller? If you go to the grocery store your going to turn away for a quarter of a second to grab something off the shelf, it's a fact of life. Relax. One of the biggest risk to children is car crashes. In which case an equally ridiculous but much much better piece of advice is "NEVER allow your children to ride in an automobile."
- ptaipale 9y ago
  Agreed. Over here (Finland), parents still put babies to sleep out in a cot in the winter, and leave them in a pram outside the grocery store while they go shopping. Schoolchildren walk or cycle to school starting from grade 1. (Sadly, the municipal day care nowadays doesn't let younger kids to go about on their own; the hysteria spreads here and often sneaks in via the public sector). Traffic is a far bigger danger than kidnappings, and the biggest danger to a child who walks to school is the parent of another child who insists on driving the kids to school.
drewm1980 9y ago
It's OK guy, I've had nightmares where I responded that way too. It must come with the testosterone. We're born with a capacity for violence and then it's reinforced by a culture that condones revenge/defense killing as long as you do it in the heat of the moment. It's a terrible natural response on an individual level, but probably goes a long way preventing people from messing with other people's kids on a societal level.

somebodyfree 9y ago

This did not actually happen: http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/23/ye-olde-ikea-sex-traffickers http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/23/ye-olde-ikea-sex-traff...

jacquesm 9y ago
Apologizing for the source, but sometimes it does happen: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2123200/man-arrested-after-three-year-old-girl-snatched-in-front-of-her-mums-eyes-in-morrisons-store/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2123200/man-arrested-after-thr...
- AznHisoka 9y ago
  Yep, this happens all the time in some parts of China as well.
- christophilus 9y ago
  Yeah. Here's a similar one: http://abc7chicago.com/news/possible-child-abduction-at-grocery-store-caught-on-camera/1559679/ http://abc7chicago.com/news/possible-child-abduction-at-groc... The story in my original comment was reported in a local news paper's website, which my wife assumed was reliable... So who knows.
- sambe 9y ago
  Or does it? http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15255796._I_was_told_that_if_I_was_found_guilty_I_could_be_facing_15_years_in_prison____said_dad_of_four_accused_of_Blackburn_Morrisons__attempted_child_abduction/ http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15255796._I_was_to...
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Good find. Have another one. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098608/Kidnap-attempt-Walmart-Girl-7-tells-moment-man-tried-abduct-her.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098608/Kidnap-attem... There are plenty of these examples over the years. It is not that it does not happen, it does happen, but it is pretty rare. My point was that you can not simply dismiss all these cases out of hand as fantasy.
    - kohanz 9y ago
      Agreed, it's rare, but does happen: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/child-s-disappearance-still-a-mystery-22-years-on-1.1327157 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/child-s-disap...
    - sambe 9y ago
      This person is also accused, not found guilty (from the link, and no quick Google turning up a conviction). It does very rarely happen. But even of the subset of events that aren't totally fabricated, many turn out to be more innocent than they are made out to be. People getting their worldview from these sources are going to be unnecessarily worrisome about such things, which is really the point of the grandparent.
    - dsnuh 9y ago
      I dismiss all of these cases out of hand as fantasy, because the chances of this actually happening to me are as close to fantasy as being eaten by a shark while I am struck by lightning.
christophilus 9y ago
I'm glad to hear that this story was fake! I never looked it up, just heard her retelling of it. Regardless, the story wasn't the point of my comment. The reaction I have as a dad vs pre-parenthood is the point. Where I live is the sex-trafficking capital of my state, which probably heightens my reactions, too. The problem is real and pervasive, fake news not withstanding.
- Reedx 9y ago
  Well, it's real like getting struck by lightning is real. The odds are extremely low. Everyone could let their kids walk to school and chances are nothing bad will happen. Though it may lead to those kids being a bit healthier, more independent and more confident. And less likely to die in a car crash - which is far, far more probable than kidnapping.
  - christophilus 9y ago
    I agree with your sentiment. It's more common than lightning strikes, though still super remote. But I'm not planning on sending my kids out to play in thunderstorms, and I'm not planning on leaving them unattended in public places until they're of a certain age. Walking to school is an interesting scenario. I hate the car, so I'd probably walk with them or ride bikes together. Side story: My dad had a friend who was almost kidnapped while on the way to school. The only reason it didn't succeed is that my dad and another friend grabbed their friend by the ankles while the guy in the car was tugging on their friend's arms. The kids all screamed bloody murder, and the men in the car gave up and drove off. In most areas of life I like to think that I let statistics drive my thinking (e.g. I don't try to beat the stock market no matter how bad things look, unless I'm gambling for the fun of it). But in the case of kids, man... it's just much harder to overcome emotional biases.
    - opo 9y ago
      >...It's more common than lightning strikes, though still super remote. It doesn't look that way: >...During the study year, there were an estimated 115 stereotypical kidnappings, defined as abductions perpetrated by a stranger or slight acquaintance and involving a child who was transported 50 or more miles, detained overnight, held for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed. http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/MC19.pdf http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/MC19.pdf So, 115 children were abducted by strangers that year. The national weather service estimates that 300 people are hit by lightning a year. http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml Like you said, it's hard for people to overcome emotional biases. As a comparison, sharing a bed with a baby (which many people think is safe) is implicated in thousands of deaths a year: >...After analyzing data on 8,207 infant deaths from 24 states that occurred between 2004 and 2012, researchers determined that nearly 74 percent of deaths in babies younger than 4 months occurred in a bed-sharing situation, according to the study published Monday in Pediatrics. >Among older infants – those aged 4 months to 364 days – the rate was slightly lower at nearly 59 percent. https://www.today.com/health/co-sleeping-linked-infant-deaths-bed-sharing-remains-popular-1D79912957 https://www.today.com/health/co-sleeping-linked-infant-death... As another comparison, over 1,600 children under 15 years of age die each year in car accidents. http://asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety-facts/road-crash-statistics http://asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safet...

betenoire 9y ago

> NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. I don't understand this approach. Alternatively, find a place to live, and a lifestyle to live, that lets your children develop without your anxiety weighing them down. You leave them unattended for hours and hours at a time while you sleep. The only difference your mind isn't racing with potential threats, it's asleep. I don't know. all kids are different, mine too.

dwaltrip 9y ago
My understanding, and what I remember from some brief research, is that kidnappings by strangers are incredibly rare. This would mean that the widespread fear we see nowadays is very disproportionate, and likely due to a variety of other social factors and not some actual underlying danger. Can anyone provide a quick corroboration/correction on this?
- gnicholas 9y ago
  You are correct—it's around 100 stranger abductions per year in the U.S. http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/31/kidnapping-stats http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/31/kidnapping-stats https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-missing-children/2013/05/10/efee398c-b8b4-11e2-aa9e-a02b765ff0ea_story.html?utm_term=.c4581f155af5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-mis...
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    Thanks for the data/links. Glad to know it actually isn't a major issue.
dsnuh 9y ago
> NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. Yeah, I have 4 kids, and this right here, in my opinion is the core of the current trend to overparent. Let your kids play where you played. Let them have their own life outside of your control and influence. There is something very unhealthy about the way we have started viewing children and childhood in the USA.

astura 9y ago

>NEVER leave your children unattended even for a moment. In this case, the parent was right beside the cart, moving groceries from the cart to the conveyor belt. Never? Come on, how far are we going to take this? Not sending them to school so you can stay home and watch for kidnappers? Never sending them to grandpa's house because grandpa might bring the kids to the grocery store and turn around for a second to pick up some carrots? Perspective! Assuming that its not a fabricated story the risk of this sort of kidnapping is so incredibly low it might as well be zero. This sort of anxiety about it is unhealthy and unproductive. Never bring them outside because a stranger may snatch them out of a stroller? If you go to the grocery store your going to turn away for a quarter of a second to grab something off the shelf, it's a fact of life. Relax. One of the biggest risk to children is car crashes. In which case an equally ridiculous but much much better piece of advice is "NEVER allow your children to ride in an automobile."

ptaipale 9y ago
Agreed. Over here (Finland), parents still put babies to sleep out in a cot in the winter, and leave them in a pram outside the grocery store while they go shopping. Schoolchildren walk or cycle to school starting from grade 1. (Sadly, the municipal day care nowadays doesn't let younger kids to go about on their own; the hysteria spreads here and often sneaks in via the public sector). Traffic is a far bigger danger than kidnappings, and the biggest danger to a child who walks to school is the parent of another child who insists on driving the kids to school.

drewm1980 9y ago

It's OK guy, I've had nightmares where I responded that way too. It must come with the testosterone. We're born with a capacity for violence and then it's reinforced by a culture that condones revenge/defense killing as long as you do it in the heat of the moment. It's a terrible natural response on an individual level, but probably goes a long way preventing people from messing with other people's kids on a societal level.