7 ms·

Sticker shock over Seattle's new sugary drink tax

29 points by Shivetya 9y ago

dawhizkid 9y ago
Isn't that the point? If it went unnoticed because it was too small then nothing would really come of it.
Keverw 9y ago
I doubt the diet soda is going to be much better for you. Seattle seems crazy. Banning plastic straws. Sure wouldn't want to live there, maybe visit but they even want to ban people from driving gas and diesels into the city! So I guess skip them on the road trip across the country once they do! Electric cars are all about control, limiting freedoms and are gimmicky. The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile physical knob. http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cities-pledge-to-ban-gas-diesel-vehicles http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cit... - wonder how huge of a fine they'll give to tourists just passing through. I really think these local governments are out of control. I really hope the feds step in and do something to them using the Commerce Clause to end this nonsense. I think there are certain things cities should be prohibited from regulating.
- icebraining 9y ago
  So you want to ban them from banning stuff? What's wrong with local citizens deciding what they want for their own city, anyway? The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile physical knob. I fully agree, but that has nothing to do with being an electric car. The Chevy Bolt has a regular knob for AC control, for example: http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrolet-Bolt-EV-2017-All-Star-Winner-climate-control.jpg http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrol...
  - Keverw 9y ago
    Nice about the Bolt. I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America, and some sort of bubble of repeating ideas over and over again. I care about the environment but I also think we have to be practical about it. Newer and newer gas cars are getting cleaner and more efficient. Or maybe someone enjoys off roading in their Jeep. or someone out of state is touring the nation in their Diesel Pusher RV. I just think it's crazy for a city to try to ban people who live in other cities from even being allowed to drive there based on their car. Well by 2030 and the article mentions the mayor, so maybe it will never happen. I just hate that idea. Maybe the tourism or chamber of commerce would step up for that one. At least with the soda tax you can just drive out of the city and buy it cheaper like the signs they posted mentioned at the store.
    - dagw 9y ago
      I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America I thought that was one of the cool features of the US. That cities and states are much more free to come up with their own way to do things and test out new ideas without always having to go the federal government and ask for permission. If Seattle wants to do A and Minneapolis wants to do B, they can just go and do it and see what happens instead of lobbying the government to make either A or B mandatory across the whole country.
- jmknoll 9y ago
  Isn’t one of the central tenets of federalism that everything should be done by the smallest government that can do it effectively? If something is done at the municipal level, it is almost definitely more democratic than if it is done at the federal level. If someone doesn’t like Seattle’s sugar tax, they can make their voice heard in city council elections, or vote with their feet, move to the suburbs, and commute into the city. Presumably the people of Seattle are down with the tax. Who are you to say they shouldn’t have it. It’s their city, after all.
runj__ 9y ago
Are there any other goods taxed after quantity rather than a sales tax? It seems complicated. EDIT: Ah, cigarettes and alcohol (in the US) apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_States#State_cigarette_tax_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_... https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854 https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854 And healthcare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States#Affordable_care_act_excise_taxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_State...
- pmyteh 9y ago
  Excise taxes on alcohol are based on quantity (of pure alcohol) not price, at least in the UK. Ditto tobacco. It's not that uncommon.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  Fuel
- olympus 9y ago
  Gasoline tax is based on quantity in the USA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta... It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance costs.
  - froindt 9y ago
    > It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance costs. There are also some cases where it makes no sense, particularly since fuel tax is a primary source of funding for infrastructure and repair. A Toyota Prius and a Ford Focus are both around 3,000 lbs, will do roughly the same damage on the road. The Prius gets 58 mpg city and 53 highway. The Focus is at 30 city 40 highway. So for city driving the Prius driver contributes 1/2 as much to the fuel tax revenues. It's a nice incentive to reduce emissions, however the Prius driver is not contributing proportionally to the fuel tax. If only we could charge make a charge based on weight, mpg, and miles driven.
smoyer 9y ago
I broadly agree that we americans consume too much sugar but I'm worried that many will find drinking artificial sweeteners as detrimental as I have. Somewhere I have a link to a source article with references to the study behind this article but alas, I'm not finding it in my Pinboard - https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/14/artificial-sweeteners-dont-fool-your-brain.aspx https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/.... What about all our other over-sweetened junk foods? What about all our fried snack-foods?
- Keverw 9y ago
  Good point. At least sugar is natural instead of a bunch of man made chemicals.
  - drchickensalad 9y ago
    Soft drinks are very refined sugar. Quite different from natural. Also implying natural is better.
    - baq 9y ago
      'natural' usually comes with fiber, which makes it's digestion completely different.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        Refined sugar (either HFCS or crystallized cane) doesn't come with fiber.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    The sugar used in drinks - especially in the US - is far from natural. There's no HFCS in nature.
    - Keverw 9y ago
      Yep. I would prefer if they went with just regular cane sugar instead but I know some drinks do have a version with that now.
snarfy 9y ago
I hate 'sin' taxes in all forms including this one. Tax alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, and now sugar. It's meant to control behavior, but they disproportionately affect the poor. They do a poor job of controlling behavior. Any cigarette smoking given the choice between having no lunch or having no cigarettes is going to choose cigarettes every time. That's not controlling behavior it's subverting it.
- baq 9y ago
  and yet it apparently works with sugar, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/mexico-sugar-tax-lower-consumption-second-year-running https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/mexico-sugar...
  - tomhoward 9y ago
    In Australia, it works with tobacco taxes too, particularly because it makes it too expensive for teenagers to take it up and become heavy smokers before they're old enough to understand the consequences. Research indicates smoking among Australian teenagers declined by about 65-70% in the 15 years to 2014. [1] http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/chapter-1-prevalence/1-6-prevalence-of-smoking-teenagers http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/chapter-1-prevalence/1-...
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  They also disproportionately benefit the poor. The poor are disproportionately affected by obesity related diseases. https://theconversation.com/rejection-of-sugar-tax-is-based-on-faulty-logic-about-the-poor-50230 https://theconversation.com/rejection-of-sugar-tax-is-based-...
  - LyndsySimon 9y ago
    Per the CDC[1], "Low-income persons consume more sugar drinks in relation to their overall diet than those with higher income." In fact, individuals with an income of 3.5x or more of the poverty level consume half as much as those with an income of 1.3x or less. Levying a tax targeted at the poor does not "benefit" them. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db71.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db71.htm
olympus 9y ago
These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction, lowering your tax base but not preventing the bad behavior. If you want a sugar tax to be effective it needs to cover a large enough area that I can't easily avoid it. Boulder, CO has a two cent per ounce sugar tax. It has been extremely effective- I now always stop at a gas station in Denver to buy a soda before driving into the Boulder city limits (I only go to Boulder once or twice a month). It's just like how we used to drive across state lines to buy cheap fireworks as a kid.
- friedButter 9y ago
  > These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction Or you can use it as an employment generation exercise by setting up checkpoints at state borders to avoid import from other states, applying a higher tax on fuel locally and making it illegal to bring more fuel into the state than you go out with. A few states in India have successfully implemented the first part for alcohol for instance, and I guess other countries should have the same. Even US has differing gun laws across states, so whatever mechanism is used to enforce those can be extended to enforce this
  - Keverw 9y ago
    Don't give any bright government worker wanting a promotion any ideas! I would hope the ACLU or some group would fight against internal checkpoints using the fourth amendment. Seems like ideas like this would be a good way to tear apart the US instead of uniting us... I think it's odd we live in a "United States" yet nothing is united when it comes to governing. Even states can't agree on tint laws. A smaller government, consistent government and personal freedoms is what I support. @olympus good point on the gun laws. New York is known for jailing and charging people with felonies. Even when they store the gun and ammo the way the TSA instructional video says to and checks it. https://youtu.be/3Xs_jrnmwoU https://youtu.be/3Xs_jrnmwoU - I wish the second amendment and full faith and credit clause was more respected. What part about "shall not be infringed" do they not understand?
  - olympus 9y ago
    There is no active mechanism to enforce gun laws when crossing state lines (and there are often safe passage laws if you are just driving through without stopping), but you can be charged if you are pulled over for another reason and the police see an illegal gun in your car. I imagine sugar tax enforcement would work similarly to the gun enforcement, not dedicated checkpoints for private cars (commercial trucks which already have checkpoints). You get pulled over for speeding, the police officer sees you have 18 cases of soda, and all of a sudden you get two fines.
makesthingspos 9y ago
In common scenarios this can be a 134-236% tax. Cigarette tax is roughly 50%, Marijuana is roughly 50%, Liquor is roughly 30%. Common scenarios: Store brand 2-liter: $0.88, 67 ounces, $0.0175 per ounce, $1.17 in tax, 134% tax. During all of December, 2-liter Cokes at Walmart in my town in Washington (not sure about Seattle) were $0.95 with $1 off coupon when buying two, this yields the 236% tax rate. If milk is listed as the first ingredient, it's not taxed. So 1200 calorie milkshakes are a substitute.
nickjj 9y ago
Hey, it could be worse. I live in a place where as of Jan 1st of this year, you have to pay a tax on plastic bags (5 cents per bag). Unlike soda, just about everyone who goes grocery shopping in small increments uses bags (because a cart is overkill). Yesterday I left the grocery store with a chicken breast sticking out of my coat pocket.
- s_dev 9y ago
  I live in place that brought in the plastic bag charge 5 years ago. I was against it -- thought it would be ineffective and inconvenient at best. Complete success. Irish countryside used to have plastic bags everywhere. Now they're scarce.
  - nickjj 9y ago
    It depends on the location I suppose. I walk 5-6 miles a day around my neighborhood and I very rarely see plastic bags on the streets. I mainly see crushed canned drinks, fast food wrappers and other garbage that would be left over from eating / drinking on foot or in a car. Most fast food places here use paper bags too.
- Thimothy 9y ago
  Or, crazy thought, you could reuse those bags. A tiny dent on all that plastic wrapping that goes into landfills but...
  - nickjj 9y ago
    I will now but I don't think it'll do much in the grand scheme of things. Even if you bought 1 bag every day for a year that'll be $18.25. Most people won't care enough to reuse bags and will continue doing business as usual pre-tax. Then of course, there's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never even heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either. I would rather see them just stop manufacturing plastic bags and also make them illegal. If their goal is to cut down on people using them that would be the way to do it. Instead, they tax it to an amount where they are hoping more than enough people won't care enough, so they can profit off laziness while they care nothing about the environment.

29 points by Shivetya 9y ago

Isn't that the point? If it went unnoticed because it was too small then nothing would really come of it.

I doubt the diet soda is going to be much better for you. Seattle seems crazy. Banning plastic straws. Sure wouldn't want to live there, maybe visit but they even want to ban people from driving gas and diesels into the city! So I guess skip them on the road trip across the country once they do! Electric cars are all about control, limiting freedoms and are gimmicky. The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile physical knob. http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cities-pledge-to-ban-gas-diesel-vehicles http://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-other-major-world-cit... - wonder how huge of a fine they'll give to tourists just passing through. I really think these local governments are out of control. I really hope the feds step in and do something to them using the Commerce Clause to end this nonsense. I think there are certain things cities should be prohibited from regulating.

icebraining 9y ago
So you want to ban them from banning stuff? What's wrong with local citizens deciding what they want for their own city, anyway? The new Tesla you have to use the touch screen to even open the glove box! Even the AC is touch screen based - which I think is unsafe compared to a tactile physical knob. I fully agree, but that has nothing to do with being an electric car. The Chevy Bolt has a regular knob for AC control, for example: http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrolet-Bolt-EV-2017-All-Star-Winner-climate-control.jpg http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2017/03/Chevrol...
- Keverw 9y ago
  Nice about the Bolt. I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America, and some sort of bubble of repeating ideas over and over again. I care about the environment but I also think we have to be practical about it. Newer and newer gas cars are getting cleaner and more efficient. Or maybe someone enjoys off roading in their Jeep. or someone out of state is touring the nation in their Diesel Pusher RV. I just think it's crazy for a city to try to ban people who live in other cities from even being allowed to drive there based on their car. Well by 2030 and the article mentions the mayor, so maybe it will never happen. I just hate that idea. Maybe the tourism or chamber of commerce would step up for that one. At least with the soda tax you can just drive out of the city and buy it cheaper like the signs they posted mentioned at the store.
  - dagw 9y ago
    I just feel like Silicon Valley and other cities like LA and Seattle are out of touch with the rest of America I thought that was one of the cool features of the US. That cities and states are much more free to come up with their own way to do things and test out new ideas without always having to go the federal government and ask for permission. If Seattle wants to do A and Minneapolis wants to do B, they can just go and do it and see what happens instead of lobbying the government to make either A or B mandatory across the whole country.
jmknoll 9y ago
Isn’t one of the central tenets of federalism that everything should be done by the smallest government that can do it effectively? If something is done at the municipal level, it is almost definitely more democratic than if it is done at the federal level. If someone doesn’t like Seattle’s sugar tax, they can make their voice heard in city council elections, or vote with their feet, move to the suburbs, and commute into the city. Presumably the people of Seattle are down with the tax. Who are you to say they shouldn’t have it. It’s their city, after all.

runj__ 9y ago

Are there any other goods taxed after quantity rather than a sales tax? It seems complicated. EDIT: Ah, cigarettes and alcohol (in the US) apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_States#State_cigarette_tax_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_taxes_in_the_United_... https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854 https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44854 And healthcare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States#Affordable_care_act_excise_taxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_State...

pmyteh 9y ago
Excise taxes on alcohol are based on quantity (of pure alcohol) not price, at least in the UK. Ditto tobacco. It's not that uncommon.
kgwgk 9y ago
Fuel
olympus 9y ago
Gasoline tax is based on quantity in the USA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta... It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance costs.
- froindt 9y ago
  > It makes sense because gas usage is very correlated with road wear, so people who drive heavier vehicles pay a proportionate share of the road maintenance costs. There are also some cases where it makes no sense, particularly since fuel tax is a primary source of funding for infrastructure and repair. A Toyota Prius and a Ford Focus are both around 3,000 lbs, will do roughly the same damage on the road. The Prius gets 58 mpg city and 53 highway. The Focus is at 30 city 40 highway. So for city driving the Prius driver contributes 1/2 as much to the fuel tax revenues. It's a nice incentive to reduce emissions, however the Prius driver is not contributing proportionally to the fuel tax. If only we could charge make a charge based on weight, mpg, and miles driven.

smoyer 9y ago

I broadly agree that we americans consume too much sugar but I'm worried that many will find drinking artificial sweeteners as detrimental as I have. Somewhere I have a link to a source article with references to the study behind this article but alas, I'm not finding it in my Pinboard - https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/14/artificial-sweeteners-dont-fool-your-brain.aspx https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/01/.... What about all our other over-sweetened junk foods? What about all our fried snack-foods?

Keverw 9y ago
Good point. At least sugar is natural instead of a bunch of man made chemicals.
- drchickensalad 9y ago
  Soft drinks are very refined sugar. Quite different from natural. Also implying natural is better.
  - baq 9y ago
    'natural' usually comes with fiber, which makes it's digestion completely different.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
      Refined sugar (either HFCS or crystallized cane) doesn't come with fiber.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The sugar used in drinks - especially in the US - is far from natural. There's no HFCS in nature.
  - Keverw 9y ago
    Yep. I would prefer if they went with just regular cane sugar instead but I know some drinks do have a version with that now.

snarfy 9y ago

I hate 'sin' taxes in all forms including this one. Tax alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, and now sugar. It's meant to control behavior, but they disproportionately affect the poor. They do a poor job of controlling behavior. Any cigarette smoking given the choice between having no lunch or having no cigarettes is going to choose cigarettes every time. That's not controlling behavior it's subverting it.

baq 9y ago
and yet it apparently works with sugar, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/mexico-sugar-tax-lower-consumption-second-year-running https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/mexico-sugar...
- tomhoward 9y ago
  In Australia, it works with tobacco taxes too, particularly because it makes it too expensive for teenagers to take it up and become heavy smokers before they're old enough to understand the consequences. Research indicates smoking among Australian teenagers declined by about 65-70% in the 15 years to 2014. [1] http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/chapter-1-prevalence/1-6-prevalence-of-smoking-teenagers http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/chapter-1-prevalence/1-...
jackvalentine 9y ago
They also disproportionately benefit the poor. The poor are disproportionately affected by obesity related diseases. https://theconversation.com/rejection-of-sugar-tax-is-based-on-faulty-logic-about-the-poor-50230 https://theconversation.com/rejection-of-sugar-tax-is-based-...
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  Per the CDC[1], "Low-income persons consume more sugar drinks in relation to their overall diet than those with higher income." In fact, individuals with an income of 3.5x or more of the poverty level consume half as much as those with an income of 1.3x or less. Levying a tax targeted at the poor does not "benefit" them. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db71.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db71.htm

olympus 9y ago

These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction, lowering your tax base but not preventing the bad behavior. If you want a sugar tax to be effective it needs to cover a large enough area that I can't easily avoid it. Boulder, CO has a two cent per ounce sugar tax. It has been extremely effective- I now always stop at a gas station in Denver to buy a soda before driving into the Boulder city limits (I only go to Boulder once or twice a month). It's just like how we used to drive across state lines to buy cheap fireworks as a kid.

friedButter 9y ago
> These taxes currently only drive purchases out of your jurisdiction Or you can use it as an employment generation exercise by setting up checkpoints at state borders to avoid import from other states, applying a higher tax on fuel locally and making it illegal to bring more fuel into the state than you go out with. A few states in India have successfully implemented the first part for alcohol for instance, and I guess other countries should have the same. Even US has differing gun laws across states, so whatever mechanism is used to enforce those can be extended to enforce this
- Keverw 9y ago
  Don't give any bright government worker wanting a promotion any ideas! I would hope the ACLU or some group would fight against internal checkpoints using the fourth amendment. Seems like ideas like this would be a good way to tear apart the US instead of uniting us... I think it's odd we live in a "United States" yet nothing is united when it comes to governing. Even states can't agree on tint laws. A smaller government, consistent government and personal freedoms is what I support. @olympus good point on the gun laws. New York is known for jailing and charging people with felonies. Even when they store the gun and ammo the way the TSA instructional video says to and checks it. https://youtu.be/3Xs_jrnmwoU https://youtu.be/3Xs_jrnmwoU - I wish the second amendment and full faith and credit clause was more respected. What part about "shall not be infringed" do they not understand?
- olympus 9y ago
  There is no active mechanism to enforce gun laws when crossing state lines (and there are often safe passage laws if you are just driving through without stopping), but you can be charged if you are pulled over for another reason and the police see an illegal gun in your car. I imagine sugar tax enforcement would work similarly to the gun enforcement, not dedicated checkpoints for private cars (commercial trucks which already have checkpoints). You get pulled over for speeding, the police officer sees you have 18 cases of soda, and all of a sudden you get two fines.

makesthingspos 9y ago

In common scenarios this can be a 134-236% tax. Cigarette tax is roughly 50%, Marijuana is roughly 50%, Liquor is roughly 30%. Common scenarios: Store brand 2-liter: $0.88, 67 ounces, $0.0175 per ounce, $1.17 in tax, 134% tax. During all of December, 2-liter Cokes at Walmart in my town in Washington (not sure about Seattle) were $0.95 with $1 off coupon when buying two, this yields the 236% tax rate. If milk is listed as the first ingredient, it's not taxed. So 1200 calorie milkshakes are a substitute.

nickjj 9y ago

Hey, it could be worse. I live in a place where as of Jan 1st of this year, you have to pay a tax on plastic bags (5 cents per bag). Unlike soda, just about everyone who goes grocery shopping in small increments uses bags (because a cart is overkill). Yesterday I left the grocery store with a chicken breast sticking out of my coat pocket.

s_dev 9y ago
I live in place that brought in the plastic bag charge 5 years ago. I was against it -- thought it would be ineffective and inconvenient at best. Complete success. Irish countryside used to have plastic bags everywhere. Now they're scarce.
- nickjj 9y ago
  It depends on the location I suppose. I walk 5-6 miles a day around my neighborhood and I very rarely see plastic bags on the streets. I mainly see crushed canned drinks, fast food wrappers and other garbage that would be left over from eating / drinking on foot or in a car. Most fast food places here use paper bags too.
Thimothy 9y ago
Or, crazy thought, you could reuse those bags. A tiny dent on all that plastic wrapping that goes into landfills but...
- nickjj 9y ago
  I will now but I don't think it'll do much in the grand scheme of things. Even if you bought 1 bag every day for a year that'll be $18.25. Most people won't care enough to reuse bags and will continue doing business as usual pre-tax. Then of course, there's the ~7.4 billion other people on Earth who never even heard of a plastic bag tax so their habits won't change either. I would rather see them just stop manufacturing plastic bags and also make them illegal. If their goal is to cut down on people using them that would be the way to do it. Instead, they tax it to an amount where they are hoping more than enough people won't care enough, so they can profit off laziness while they care nothing about the environment.