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> The web by and large requires javascript, and it's not likely to change. While I am mostly a pessimist, this is one place where I harbor a tiny sliver of opt

> The web by and large requires javascript, and it's not likely to change. While I am mostly a pessimist, this is one place where I harbor a tiny sliver of optimism. Once users recognize that something is awful, and have the means to get rid of it, they eventually do so. Client side Java and Flash are dead, because everyday users figured out that they sucked, and were given the option not to use them. We're getting close to a situation where average people recognize that millisecond auctions to run arbitrary code on their machines are a bad idea, and those people also have the tools to say "no." Hope springs internal...

EgoIncarnate 9y ago
The users didn't make the decision, the platforms did, and the decision was made after an alternative was available in Javascript. If anyone killed Flash and Java, it was Apple by refusing to support either on the iPhone. All the users did was make popular a platform that didn't support them. If Apple had supported Flash and Java we probably would still have them. Signed code that users had to install was tried before with ActiveX. It didn't work either because you can't rely on random developers to write secure code either. It's also how IE ended up with Flash. Click here to download Flash (signed by Macromedia). So basically everything sucks because we're human and make mistakes. Maybe one day we'll have machines that reason more thoroughly than us and they can come up with a secure platform. Until then... Javascript and sandboxes.
- username223 9y ago
  > If anyone killed Flash and Java, it was Apple by refusing to support either on the iPhone. Apple may have put the nail in the coffin, but long before that quite a few developers and users were avoiding Java programs when there were alternatives, and ClickToFlash was a popular browser plug-in. As they often do, Apple saw which way the wind was blowing.
pjmlp 9y ago
> Client side Java and Flash are dead Not paying attention to the news? Just wait until WebAssembly gets more mature.
- EgoIncarnate 9y ago
  I don't think WebAssembly is going to bring back Flash or Java Applets in any meaningful way. Maybe someone will hack something together and use it for niche old Flash game sites, but it's hard to see a reason for widespread adoption of anything new. People have moved on. Flash and Java Applets may not be "dead" forever, but they also are not likely to ever be more than undead zombies.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Again, not paying attention to the news. http://teavm.org/ http://teavm.org/ https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2432179 https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2432179 http://www.mono-project.com/news/2017/08/09/hello-webassembly/ http://www.mono-project.com/news/2017/08/09/hello-webassembl... https://www.hanselman.com/blog/NETAndWebAssemblyIsThisTheFutureOfTheFrontend.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/NETAndWebAssemblyIsThisTheFut... https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/197 https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/197
    - EgoIncarnate 9y ago
      I think we are talking about different things. Half your links have nothing to do with Flash or Java Applets (.net, XAML?). You seem to be talking about new platforms that may derive some part from the old. I'm not saying WebAssembly won't be used for new platforms as that's sort of the whole point of it. What I'm saying is that WebAssembly won't bring back people making Flash .swfs or writing classes derived from java.applet.Applet in any mainstream way. In that sense Flash and Java Applets are dead. Maybe someone will hack something together that allows you to run them, but that won't bring the developers back to the old platforms. If Oracle or Adobe announce something, maybe the industry will jump on board, but currently I don't see anything in your list that makes me change my mind about Flash and Java Applets being dead and not coming back.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        TeaVM allows any Java application to be ported into WebAssembly, be it an applet or not. As3-WebAssembly is a compiler for porting Action Script 3, Flash's programming language, into WebAssembly. Already integrated into Flash Develop. Microsoft and Xamarin efforts to port Mono into WebAssembly, will allow making Silverlight apps again. You are free to believe this won't turn out into anything, I rather think we will end up in WebAssembly + Canvas/WebGL in a couple of years.

EgoIncarnate 9y ago

The users didn't make the decision, the platforms did, and the decision was made after an alternative was available in Javascript. If anyone killed Flash and Java, it was Apple by refusing to support either on the iPhone. All the users did was make popular a platform that didn't support them. If Apple had supported Flash and Java we probably would still have them. Signed code that users had to install was tried before with ActiveX. It didn't work either because you can't rely on random developers to write secure code either. It's also how IE ended up with Flash. Click here to download Flash (signed by Macromedia). So basically everything sucks because we're human and make mistakes. Maybe one day we'll have machines that reason more thoroughly than us and they can come up with a secure platform. Until then... Javascript and sandboxes.

username223 9y ago
> If anyone killed Flash and Java, it was Apple by refusing to support either on the iPhone. Apple may have put the nail in the coffin, but long before that quite a few developers and users were avoiding Java programs when there were alternatives, and ClickToFlash was a popular browser plug-in. As they often do, Apple saw which way the wind was blowing.

pjmlp 9y ago

> Client side Java and Flash are dead Not paying attention to the news? Just wait until WebAssembly gets more mature.

EgoIncarnate 9y ago
I don't think WebAssembly is going to bring back Flash or Java Applets in any meaningful way. Maybe someone will hack something together and use it for niche old Flash game sites, but it's hard to see a reason for widespread adoption of anything new. People have moved on. Flash and Java Applets may not be "dead" forever, but they also are not likely to ever be more than undead zombies.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Again, not paying attention to the news. http://teavm.org/ http://teavm.org/ https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2432179 https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2432179 http://www.mono-project.com/news/2017/08/09/hello-webassembly/ http://www.mono-project.com/news/2017/08/09/hello-webassembl... https://www.hanselman.com/blog/NETAndWebAssemblyIsThisTheFutureOfTheFrontend.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/NETAndWebAssemblyIsThisTheFut... https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/197 https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/197
  - EgoIncarnate 9y ago
    I think we are talking about different things. Half your links have nothing to do with Flash or Java Applets (.net, XAML?). You seem to be talking about new platforms that may derive some part from the old. I'm not saying WebAssembly won't be used for new platforms as that's sort of the whole point of it. What I'm saying is that WebAssembly won't bring back people making Flash .swfs or writing classes derived from java.applet.Applet in any mainstream way. In that sense Flash and Java Applets are dead. Maybe someone will hack something together that allows you to run them, but that won't bring the developers back to the old platforms. If Oracle or Adobe announce something, maybe the industry will jump on board, but currently I don't see anything in your list that makes me change my mind about Flash and Java Applets being dead and not coming back.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      TeaVM allows any Java application to be ported into WebAssembly, be it an applet or not. As3-WebAssembly is a compiler for porting Action Script 3, Flash's programming language, into WebAssembly. Already integrated into Flash Develop. Microsoft and Xamarin efforts to port Mono into WebAssembly, will allow making Silverlight apps again. You are free to believe this won't turn out into anything, I rather think we will end up in WebAssembly + Canvas/WebGL in a couple of years.