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It seems to me like the whole value proposition of ICOs is getting people to think of a currency as equity in a company.

by paulgb 9y ago

pbiggar 9y ago
I agree. But is explicitly not that. Often your currency is backed by nothing at all, with no potential for it to even be worth anything.
- Alex3917 9y ago
  > Often your currency is backed by nothing at all, with no potential for it to even be worth anything. If enough people make Pascal’s Wager, then god effectively exists.
raiyu 9y ago
Not necessarily. Companies still need to charge you for a service, so instead of buying something directly you buy tokens from them and then use them. That has been in use by companies for quite some time, just that the tokens were primarily used to actually work with the companies service, rather than trade them as an independent entity.
- paulgb 9y ago
  I could see how that could work in theory (and I'll be excited if that's actually happening!), but aren't most of these ICOs for products that don't exist yet? It seems like the token buyers take on risk as if they are investors in the company without getting a stake in the upside.
  - raiyu 9y ago
    Any ICO from a newly formed company is entirely at risk. An ICO from Kik or Telegram is different to an extent in that there is already an entity behind it. Of course if there were no "blockchain" they would simply issue tokens like everyone has in the past, where you exchange money to get a token, that you can use in the app, and that token is locked into that app. So you can't use it elsewhere, but it still has some value as long as the app and users exist since you can sell your tokens to other people if you no longer need them, assuming that transferring of tokens is allowed / acceptable. But then it wouldn't be block chain, and it wouldn't get any hype =] Games have been using this for years and years, so there's really no difference here. One side likes to point out the internet bubble, the other side likes to say well look at the internet now. What's missed though is the massive companies that were built in the middle, that really changed our daily lives. Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, etc, these companies changed how we live our lives and then Banks and everyone else realized the benefits of offering connected services directly to a PC or a phone and again there were tremendous benefits to consumers and end users. At the moment, there is no benefit, outside of a large remittance and some tax avoidance that can be accomplished through cryptocurrency, and certainly there's no functional product company in the crypto space, outside of the exchanges which make money through people simply trading currencies, but returning no real value back to the world.
    - starlust2 9y ago
      But aren't all these app creating their own coins? Doesn't that mean the tokens are only usable in that app?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
the_stc 9y ago
It is completely disgusting. We started by calling our ICO an IPO and making a note that we are selling shares, not tokens. But people still want to see a whitepaper and hear about tokens. And despite clearly saying we accept physical dollars [cash] for payment of services, people still think we are selling tokens to buy stuff with and comment how little sense that makes. In the end, we decided to go along with the ICO terminology because it was too hard to fight perception. We still do the right thing: We're selling an unregistered security, shares in our company, and will pay dividends. In short though, people trying to do the right thing are punished, and the people that overhype and do the ridiculous approach are highly rewarded.
- dna_polymerase 9y ago
  Exactly. People don't realize that the "product" (if you can call whitepapers that) is completely decoupled from the Token s value. Of course the product could indeed use the Token but they don't have to and it doesn't make sense in most cases either. I am wondering if 2018 will bring a deflation, maybe even a burst to the crypto bubble. It's all fairy dust right now anyway.
bottled_poe 9y ago
Except most ICOs don't offer such equity - instead they offer a token of questionable value and/or utility.

It seems to me like the whole value proposition of ICOs is getting people to think of a currency as equity in a company.

by paulgb 9y ago

It seems to me like the whole value proposition of ICOs is getting people to think of a currency as equity in a company.

pbiggar 9y ago

I agree. But is explicitly not that. Often your currency is backed by nothing at all, with no potential for it to even be worth anything.

Alex3917 9y ago
> Often your currency is backed by nothing at all, with no potential for it to even be worth anything. If enough people make Pascal’s Wager, then god effectively exists.

raiyu 9y ago

Not necessarily. Companies still need to charge you for a service, so instead of buying something directly you buy tokens from them and then use them. That has been in use by companies for quite some time, just that the tokens were primarily used to actually work with the companies service, rather than trade them as an independent entity.

paulgb 9y ago
I could see how that could work in theory (and I'll be excited if that's actually happening!), but aren't most of these ICOs for products that don't exist yet? It seems like the token buyers take on risk as if they are investors in the company without getting a stake in the upside.
- raiyu 9y ago
  Any ICO from a newly formed company is entirely at risk. An ICO from Kik or Telegram is different to an extent in that there is already an entity behind it. Of course if there were no "blockchain" they would simply issue tokens like everyone has in the past, where you exchange money to get a token, that you can use in the app, and that token is locked into that app. So you can't use it elsewhere, but it still has some value as long as the app and users exist since you can sell your tokens to other people if you no longer need them, assuming that transferring of tokens is allowed / acceptable. But then it wouldn't be block chain, and it wouldn't get any hype =] Games have been using this for years and years, so there's really no difference here. One side likes to point out the internet bubble, the other side likes to say well look at the internet now. What's missed though is the massive companies that were built in the middle, that really changed our daily lives. Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, etc, these companies changed how we live our lives and then Banks and everyone else realized the benefits of offering connected services directly to a PC or a phone and again there were tremendous benefits to consumers and end users. At the moment, there is no benefit, outside of a large remittance and some tax avoidance that can be accomplished through cryptocurrency, and certainly there's no functional product company in the crypto space, outside of the exchanges which make money through people simply trading currencies, but returning no real value back to the world.
  - starlust2 9y ago
    But aren't all these app creating their own coins? Doesn't that mean the tokens are only usable in that app?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

the_stc 9y ago

It is completely disgusting. We started by calling our ICO an IPO and making a note that we are selling shares, not tokens. But people still want to see a whitepaper and hear about tokens. And despite clearly saying we accept physical dollars [cash] for payment of services, people still think we are selling tokens to buy stuff with and comment how little sense that makes. In the end, we decided to go along with the ICO terminology because it was too hard to fight perception. We still do the right thing: We're selling an unregistered security, shares in our company, and will pay dividends. In short though, people trying to do the right thing are punished, and the people that overhype and do the ridiculous approach are highly rewarded.

dna_polymerase 9y ago
Exactly. People don't realize that the "product" (if you can call whitepapers that) is completely decoupled from the Token s value. Of course the product could indeed use the Token but they don't have to and it doesn't make sense in most cases either. I am wondering if 2018 will bring a deflation, maybe even a burst to the crypto bubble. It's all fairy dust right now anyway.

bottled_poe 9y ago

Except most ICOs don't offer such equity - instead they offer a token of questionable value and/or utility.