5 ms·

You need a very minimal amount of social skill to succeed in programming - just enough to not piss coworkers off too badly while working together on projects. P

You need a very minimal amount of social skill to succeed in programming - just enough to not piss coworkers off too badly while working together on projects. Past that, you get mostly quiet and controlled environments, managers willing to let you work on your special interests, and generally get left alone to stare at your screen and type things out. This is one of the best working environments you can find for autistic people. And all these factors that make it so good for autistics makes it more hellish for neurotypicals: you have techies to socialize with who do not like to be interrupted, lots of time expected to be working instead of socializing, and your soft-skills aren't particularly well suited for making the computer do the things you want. There are something like three to five times as many autistic males than females, depending on the cutoff point and study used. I'm honestly astounded that people are rejecting the biological claim, given how strongly it attracts autistics. IMHO, a lot of inclusivity-in-tech movements are horrifically ableist for wanting to destroy this niche in the pursuit of making the programming niche more welcoming to other groups. It's about goddamn time there's some push-back against these sorts of gentrifying movements, they're incredibly bad for the work environment interests of autistics.

bertil 9y ago
Your argument that “inclusivity-in-tech [is] ableist for wanting to destroy this niche in the pursuit of making the programming niche more welcoming to other groups” is interesting and probably a much better way to represent a claim similar to Damore in a far less offensive way to women. I can personally name a handful of non-neuro-typical people who would wholeheartedly agree (half of them females because my friends are frustratingly non-representative). However, if you check the ratio of people even moderately high on the Asperger’s scale among programmers, it is much higher than other more social profession but still a small portion overall. That difference doesn’t come close to explaining the gender gap. Maybe you care for all introverts (who resent interruptions) including the majority of introverts who are neuro-typical. I do believe most programmers are introvert but I’m not familiar with the gender distribution of introversion but I’d be surprised if it were large enough to explain the gender disparity in tech.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  >However, if you check the ratio of people even moderately high on the Asperger’s scale among programmers, it is much higher than other more social profession but still a small portion overall. That difference doesn’t come close to explaining the gender gap. That's why I included the part about the programming work environment generally being unpleasant and demanding. I didn't make the connection explicit, but "high paying job that sucks" is a preferential attractor for male workers. 90% of workplace deaths are men, men tend to do more things like "work on dangerous and dirty oil rigs", men tend to work more hours than women, and women tend to accumulate in more personally rewarding jobs such as teaching or social work. The end result is a gross earnings gap that basically disappears when you control for these sorts of choices. So to be explicit: becoming a programmer is a choice that pays well, but is difficult work, requires a large time commitment to study, and is not intuitively gratifying. On that basis alone I'd expect outsized male participation. >I’m not familiar with the gender distribution of introversion In terms of big-5 personality traits, the gendered differences are that women tend to score higher on Agreeableness and Neuroticism. I don't think it's particularly relevant to this whole discussion, though.
kpdxxx 9y ago
Always love reading HN and wondering how utterly lost you need to be in life to come to the conclusion that programming is being 'gentrified' by some people trying to be inclusive. Please read up on the definition of gentrification, you clearly don't understand the connotation of that word.
forgottenpass 9y ago
The best thing about your post is that it argues for the interest group of people who don't play all the reindeer games, but can still be valuable members of a team. The worst thing about your post (that isn't at all your fault), is that there isn't a strong argument for them palatable to the hegemony short of "ableism." If the explanation in your first paragraph is true, then does it stand to reason that there are non-autistic people with weak soft skills? Or simply prefer an individualistic, distraction-free workplace? My answer to this rhetorical question is: Yes, obviously, as long as you don't tautologically define anyone with a below-threshold appetite for social interaction at work as autistic. It's fashionable in SV to talk of empathy, tolerance, acceptance etc... Yet from the outside I see a very close-minded bubble that demands people comport to so many social standards that nobody actually finds necessary for professionals to work productively. They'll let people get away with non-conformance only if they've got an excuse that would be a political landmine to cross (e.g. ableism re: autism).
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  Like all disability accomodations, it's useful for people without that disability. Curb cutouts are useful for hand trucks, for instance. But yeah, there's people who simply prefer that sort of environment, and it's also shitty behavior against them.

bertil 9y ago

Your argument that “inclusivity-in-tech [is] ableist for wanting to destroy this niche in the pursuit of making the programming niche more welcoming to other groups” is interesting and probably a much better way to represent a claim similar to Damore in a far less offensive way to women. I can personally name a handful of non-neuro-typical people who would wholeheartedly agree (half of them females because my friends are frustratingly non-representative). However, if you check the ratio of people even moderately high on the Asperger’s scale among programmers, it is much higher than other more social profession but still a small portion overall. That difference doesn’t come close to explaining the gender gap. Maybe you care for all introverts (who resent interruptions) including the majority of introverts who are neuro-typical. I do believe most programmers are introvert but I’m not familiar with the gender distribution of introversion but I’d be surprised if it were large enough to explain the gender disparity in tech.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
>However, if you check the ratio of people even moderately high on the Asperger’s scale among programmers, it is much higher than other more social profession but still a small portion overall. That difference doesn’t come close to explaining the gender gap. That's why I included the part about the programming work environment generally being unpleasant and demanding. I didn't make the connection explicit, but "high paying job that sucks" is a preferential attractor for male workers. 90% of workplace deaths are men, men tend to do more things like "work on dangerous and dirty oil rigs", men tend to work more hours than women, and women tend to accumulate in more personally rewarding jobs such as teaching or social work. The end result is a gross earnings gap that basically disappears when you control for these sorts of choices. So to be explicit: becoming a programmer is a choice that pays well, but is difficult work, requires a large time commitment to study, and is not intuitively gratifying. On that basis alone I'd expect outsized male participation. >I’m not familiar with the gender distribution of introversion In terms of big-5 personality traits, the gendered differences are that women tend to score higher on Agreeableness and Neuroticism. I don't think it's particularly relevant to this whole discussion, though.

kpdxxx 9y ago

Always love reading HN and wondering how utterly lost you need to be in life to come to the conclusion that programming is being 'gentrified' by some people trying to be inclusive. Please read up on the definition of gentrification, you clearly don't understand the connotation of that word.

forgottenpass 9y ago

The best thing about your post is that it argues for the interest group of people who don't play all the reindeer games, but can still be valuable members of a team. The worst thing about your post (that isn't at all your fault), is that there isn't a strong argument for them palatable to the hegemony short of "ableism." If the explanation in your first paragraph is true, then does it stand to reason that there are non-autistic people with weak soft skills? Or simply prefer an individualistic, distraction-free workplace? My answer to this rhetorical question is: Yes, obviously, as long as you don't tautologically define anyone with a below-threshold appetite for social interaction at work as autistic. It's fashionable in SV to talk of empathy, tolerance, acceptance etc... Yet from the outside I see a very close-minded bubble that demands people comport to so many social standards that nobody actually finds necessary for professionals to work productively. They'll let people get away with non-conformance only if they've got an excuse that would be a political landmine to cross (e.g. ableism re: autism).

ThrustVectoring 9y ago
Like all disability accomodations, it's useful for people without that disability. Curb cutouts are useful for hand trucks, for instance. But yeah, there's people who simply prefer that sort of environment, and it's also shitty behavior against them.