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There’s a tendency to accept without question, in these sorts of conversations, that “trivial entertainment” is bad, or at least qualifiably inferior to either

by candu 9y ago

There’s a tendency to accept without question, in these sorts of conversations, that “trivial entertainment” is bad, or at least qualifiably inferior to either “good entertainment” (less Skinner-box-ish games, going outside, socializing, etc.) or “self-improvement” (reading, thinking, practicing, etc.) IMHO, most of us in fact choose all of the above; what we should be aiming for is the proper balance, not to replace all of one type of activity with something “better”. “Trivial entertainment“ meets a human need for mental and physical downtime, as well as for the sort of quick gratification that we rarely get from loftier or more productive pursuits. It’s always been that way, from dice in Mohenjo-Daro to graffiti in the Coliseum to, well, fucking Candy Crush. The trick is to engage in the right amount of it - and this is, I think, where the pernicious effect of these sorts of entertainments lies: in encouraging us to make the wrong decisions about that balance. It’s true that we now have opportunities for self-improvement our ancestors couldn’t have dreamed of. It’s also true that they had opportunities in this dimension that are increasingly rare in modern society: formal apprenticeship, for instance. Put another way: the sum total of human knowledge is, in the end, next to useless without a social, human context in which to learn and apply it. Even those in this thread who are “self-taught” have undoubtedly learned much from mentors and peers. In this respect, it matters very little that we have that knowledge in our pockets unless we also have the tools and social structures necessary to promote its use.

cpsempek 9y ago
a human need for mental and physical downtime, as well as for the sort of quick gratification that we rarely get from loftier or more productive pursuits Could this not be said about drugs and alcohol? And while it may indeed be beneficial to use drugs and alcohol in a balanced, well moderated way, the downside risk seems to great to me to be suggesting this to a society.
- AFNobody 9y ago
  > Could this not be said about drugs and alcohol? And while it may indeed be beneficial to use drugs and alcohol in a balanced, well moderated way, the downside risk seems to great to me to be suggesting this to a society. Over half of fatalities in cars have nothing to do with DUI-type impairment. Would you ban those as well? But lets say you ban alcohol and re-create the problems of the Prohibition. Banning the way individuals can use their personal freedoms to ruin their lives is generally worse than the disease you are trying to cure. People are very, very resistant to their vices being interfered with. But, also, if you are comparing video games to drugs and alcohol...you are massively distorting the scale because video games are not killing _other_ people. They are just ruining the life of the addict. DUIs actually kill innocent, blameless individuals.
  - cpsempek 9y ago
    That's reasonable, certainly alcohol has real effects beyond the scope of the dangers of mindless games, or, marijuana even. I didn't intend to suggest games have the same types of effects as DUIs, a shortsighted comparison on my end. I am more interested in how a position of moderation is in theory attractive, and may even show benefits in controlled situations, but in practice use of substances or mobile games can lead to excessive use (i.e., abuse) and have a net negative on a user physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, etc.
    - AFNobody 9y ago
      > I am more interested in how a position of moderation is in theory attractive, and may even show benefits in controlled situations, but in practice use of substances or mobile games can lead to excessive use (i.e., abuse) and have a net negative on a user physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, etc. Some people, unfortunately, have personalities that are vulnerable to be exploited (at the most cynical case). However, if we are being really honest, the same is true of things like sex addicts. The reason we are reacting to this is the newness of it and the fact it is being marketed to kids. Really, the only restriction that might be reasonable, is restrictions on childhood consumption.
  - yomly 9y ago
    It is reasonable for you to find the link between videogame (or content) addiction and chemical addiction more tenuous. I would be curious to know what your thoughts on gambling are? Irrespective of any solution, do you feel that leaving the gambling industry unrestrained would not be damaging for society?
    - AFNobody 9y ago
      > I would be curious to know what your thoughts on gambling are? Irrespective of any solution, do you feel that leaving the gambling industry unrestrained would not be damaging for society? I don't think it should be unrestrained. But then again, I don't think in game purchases should be marketed to children either. Basically, if they are an adult, I don't think restraining them is practical but providing them with opportunities for education and requiring the gambling industry to be a part of that process (by providing the materials and the odds of their games in very visible ways) is really all the "restraint" required.
bjourne 9y ago
Of course it is about moderation, but how can you moderate yourself when there is an infinite supply available? If my fridge contained an infinite supply of chocolate and ice cream I'd get so fat so fast...
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  If you can limit yourself not to eat everything available instantly with a finite supply, you can probably limit yourself in the same way with an infinite supply.
- seangrogg 9y ago
  I'd likely do the same if those were the only things that existed in infinite quantities, but if said fridge also contained equally infinite meats and cheeses I'd be more likely to stick to a diet and reach goals I'd set for myself and just ignore the sweets unless I declared a cheat day. Then again, I'm also the sort that has a phone in front of me and spends more time on HN, Quora, and in coding/interest-related discord channels than social media or games.
  - bjourne 9y ago
    Are you sure browsing hn and quora are productive uses of your time?
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > Of course it is about moderation, but how can you moderate yourself when there is an infinite supply available? Correction: an infinite supply using psychology tricks A/B tested to keep you going as long as possible.
yomly 9y ago
I can't fault anything you've said, but my problem is that just through your diction it is already clear to me that you are an outlier in the grand scheme of media-consumers. Having broached this subject with various people, it is clear to me that most people are oblivious to the nature of 21st-Century media creation. A vast swathe of it is cynically designed to maximise engagement - the Orwellian term for something being addictive. Open any successful mobile microtransaction driven game and it will be clear that it has taken very obvious cues from the casino industry. To most people, it is completely reasonable that government should educate people about the risks of gambling, regulate the industry heavily and restrict underage people from access. Pose the idea to people who are not tech-savvy whether similar restrictions should apply to mobile games and they'll look at you like you're insane. It's a ridiculous example, but if we were to start adding heroin to foods or soft-drinks because they make us feel good or because they make our businesses profitable, you could bet your ass populations would be up in arms about the issue. Yet dark patterns and psychological traps in app-design don't incite the same degree of outrage: there is a lack of awareness on the issue, and businesses are keen to exploit it.

by candu 9y ago

cpsempek 9y ago

a human need for mental and physical downtime, as well as for the sort of quick gratification that we rarely get from loftier or more productive pursuits Could this not be said about drugs and alcohol? And while it may indeed be beneficial to use drugs and alcohol in a balanced, well moderated way, the downside risk seems to great to me to be suggesting this to a society.

AFNobody 9y ago
> Could this not be said about drugs and alcohol? And while it may indeed be beneficial to use drugs and alcohol in a balanced, well moderated way, the downside risk seems to great to me to be suggesting this to a society. Over half of fatalities in cars have nothing to do with DUI-type impairment. Would you ban those as well? But lets say you ban alcohol and re-create the problems of the Prohibition. Banning the way individuals can use their personal freedoms to ruin their lives is generally worse than the disease you are trying to cure. People are very, very resistant to their vices being interfered with. But, also, if you are comparing video games to drugs and alcohol...you are massively distorting the scale because video games are not killing _other_ people. They are just ruining the life of the addict. DUIs actually kill innocent, blameless individuals.
- cpsempek 9y ago
  That's reasonable, certainly alcohol has real effects beyond the scope of the dangers of mindless games, or, marijuana even. I didn't intend to suggest games have the same types of effects as DUIs, a shortsighted comparison on my end. I am more interested in how a position of moderation is in theory attractive, and may even show benefits in controlled situations, but in practice use of substances or mobile games can lead to excessive use (i.e., abuse) and have a net negative on a user physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, etc.
  - AFNobody 9y ago
    > I am more interested in how a position of moderation is in theory attractive, and may even show benefits in controlled situations, but in practice use of substances or mobile games can lead to excessive use (i.e., abuse) and have a net negative on a user physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, etc. Some people, unfortunately, have personalities that are vulnerable to be exploited (at the most cynical case). However, if we are being really honest, the same is true of things like sex addicts. The reason we are reacting to this is the newness of it and the fact it is being marketed to kids. Really, the only restriction that might be reasonable, is restrictions on childhood consumption.
- yomly 9y ago
  It is reasonable for you to find the link between videogame (or content) addiction and chemical addiction more tenuous. I would be curious to know what your thoughts on gambling are? Irrespective of any solution, do you feel that leaving the gambling industry unrestrained would not be damaging for society?
  - AFNobody 9y ago
    > I would be curious to know what your thoughts on gambling are? Irrespective of any solution, do you feel that leaving the gambling industry unrestrained would not be damaging for society? I don't think it should be unrestrained. But then again, I don't think in game purchases should be marketed to children either. Basically, if they are an adult, I don't think restraining them is practical but providing them with opportunities for education and requiring the gambling industry to be a part of that process (by providing the materials and the odds of their games in very visible ways) is really all the "restraint" required.

bjourne 9y ago

Of course it is about moderation, but how can you moderate yourself when there is an infinite supply available? If my fridge contained an infinite supply of chocolate and ice cream I'd get so fat so fast...

dragonwriter 9y ago
If you can limit yourself not to eat everything available instantly with a finite supply, you can probably limit yourself in the same way with an infinite supply.
seangrogg 9y ago
I'd likely do the same if those were the only things that existed in infinite quantities, but if said fridge also contained equally infinite meats and cheeses I'd be more likely to stick to a diet and reach goals I'd set for myself and just ignore the sweets unless I declared a cheat day. Then again, I'm also the sort that has a phone in front of me and spends more time on HN, Quora, and in coding/interest-related discord channels than social media or games.
- bjourne 9y ago
  Are you sure browsing hn and quora are productive uses of your time?
Chaebixi 9y ago
> Of course it is about moderation, but how can you moderate yourself when there is an infinite supply available? Correction: an infinite supply using psychology tricks A/B tested to keep you going as long as possible.

yomly 9y ago

I can't fault anything you've said, but my problem is that just through your diction it is already clear to me that you are an outlier in the grand scheme of media-consumers. Having broached this subject with various people, it is clear to me that most people are oblivious to the nature of 21st-Century media creation. A vast swathe of it is cynically designed to maximise engagement - the Orwellian term for something being addictive. Open any successful mobile microtransaction driven game and it will be clear that it has taken very obvious cues from the casino industry. To most people, it is completely reasonable that government should educate people about the risks of gambling, regulate the industry heavily and restrict underage people from access. Pose the idea to people who are not tech-savvy whether similar restrictions should apply to mobile games and they'll look at you like you're insane. It's a ridiculous example, but if we were to start adding heroin to foods or soft-drinks because they make us feel good or because they make our businesses profitable, you could bet your ass populations would be up in arms about the issue. Yet dark patterns and psychological traps in app-design don't incite the same degree of outrage: there is a lack of awareness on the issue, and businesses are keen to exploit it.