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> Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? First of all, you're arguing based on

> Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? First of all, you're arguing based on a hypothetical. I don't agree with your foregone conclusions, and there's little utility in debating them since your entire scenario is fictional. Secondly, the article you linked to didn't call for extradition. > The article above is exactly that- anti-Chinese propaganda. It draws the attention to the oppressive surveillance of its citizens by the Chinese state, which is fair and proper to do; but at the same time it ignores the 195 kg Gorilla gorilla in the room: that the US state itself is doing exactly the same. Disagree, since it specifically highlights similarities (and differences) between Chinese and US surveillance programs. They are quite clearly not "exactly the same", even in light of the Snowden revelations. > It is very easy to see articles like that as a deliberate attempt to show our Western democracies in a positive light, compared to the oppressive, undemocratic regimes that just so happen to also be our political and economic rivals. The US is far from perfect, but the amount of state supervision and intrusion into private life is an order of magnitude greater in China. Whether that's positive or negative is subjective, but the fundamental fact is inarguable.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer, and I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. There may be a difference (I wouldn't call it "inarguable" based only on articles in the Western media, really) but it's more like the difference in falling from 1500 and 1200 feet- not the difference between falling and not falling, say. Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. We could look at cases where exactly what I say has happened. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I > I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. The fact that both are bad in no way means both are remotely equivalent - far less equivalent than your altitude analogy would imply > Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc. I'm apparently reasonable enough to recognize the world has changed since the cold war - not least of which China - sufficiently so that it's hardly a reasonable point of comparison
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    >> I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I Did I say something to offend you? I'm sorry if I did. Anyway I see you don't really enjoy the conversation. Apologies for that, too.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer, and I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. There may be a difference (I wouldn't call it "inarguable" based only on articles in the Western media, really) but it's more like the difference in falling from 1500 and 1200 feet- not the difference between falling and not falling, say. Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. We could look at cases where exactly what I say has happened. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc.

doktrin 9y ago
> I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I > I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. The fact that both are bad in no way means both are remotely equivalent - far less equivalent than your altitude analogy would imply > Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc. I'm apparently reasonable enough to recognize the world has changed since the cold war - not least of which China - sufficiently so that it's hardly a reasonable point of comparison
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  >> I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I Did I say something to offend you? I'm sorry if I did. Anyway I see you don't really enjoy the conversation. Apologies for that, too.