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"games with educational value" Unfortunately that's a near non-sequitur. For example a "math game" may actually be a crappy button smashing experience that's m

by fsloth 9y ago

"games with educational value" Unfortunately that's a near non-sequitur. For example a "math game" may actually be a crappy button smashing experience that's made to look "educational" in the store. Etc.

Angostura 9y ago
Having watched my kid build bizarre red-stone power contraptions in minecraft, picking up the basics of logic circuits along the way, I disagree.
- fsloth 9y ago
  That's still no replacement for basic formal mathematics and linguistic skills, such as how to craft a good text. I value my kids learning the multiplication tables and understanding fundamental geometric concepts. Universe is built on math and the society is built on math and writing. I'm not denying Kerbal and Minecraft are stimulating for kids but no way can they replace the fundamentals. In the general sense. If we categorize kids time into 'education' and playtime ( both of which are important!) I would categorize minecraft and kerbal into the play section.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
TeMPOraL 9y ago
You know what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game. No one is getting fooled by that. As for good games with educational value, I'd point to obvious examples like Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics), Minecraft (can make kids learn to program), Zachtronics games like SpaceChem or Shenzhen I/O, and ultimately any narrative-heavy game as a good way for kids from non-English-speaking countries to learn English.
- PascLeRasc 9y ago
  I'd put Civ5 and Portal into the "accidentally educational" category too. Funnily enough you could give your kids Ubuntu and they could play all these games and learn a little about Linux too.
- fsloth 9y ago
  "...what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game." Yeah, basically anything in that category except perhaps for rote memorization of multiplication tables is better done by a human teacher and static quality educational materials. "Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics)," With a) MSc in physics b) two kids in school c) over 700 hours spent personally in Kerbal I disagree. It does not really teach math and claiming it does is delusional. However, it does give a pretty intuitive introduction into orbital dynamics. It's a fun game. And there's nothing wrong in that category! Fun and games are as important as learning, but these two categories are complementary. Pretending one is the other does not really help anyone. It's confounding to confuse the two as a parent who has to consider how the kids spend their time (i.e how screen time is rationed). If my kids want to play Kerbal, it's rationed from the "digital games" category and not "educational". For me "educational and character building" category includes stuff like 3D modeling, playing and mixing music, creating stop motion animation, etc. The latter they can do as much as they like.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I wrote "makes 12 years old learn the math" not to imply KSP teaches math by itself, but to observe that it motivates kids to go and learn the math on their own, and to enjoy it. If you take a look at the community around KSP, you'll find plenty of kids learning math and physics to better understand what their spacecrafts are doing and how to make better ones. Reminds me of how I learned trigonometry myself - I hated it at school, but learned it immediately - along with basic matrix/vector linear algebra - once I needed it to rotate stuff in a game I was writing. This brings me to my core issue with edutainment - fake problems. Bite-sized issues designed to "teach" a kid a particular concept, which can be immediately recognized for what they are - school after school. Fake problems are not fun. Meaningful problems - those working within the context of a game world that stands on its own, like "wtf is ∆v, how does it work and how do I ballpark the amount of it in my rocket" - those are fun and motivating.

by fsloth 9y ago

Angostura 9y ago

Having watched my kid build bizarre red-stone power contraptions in minecraft, picking up the basics of logic circuits along the way, I disagree.

fsloth 9y ago
That's still no replacement for basic formal mathematics and linguistic skills, such as how to craft a good text. I value my kids learning the multiplication tables and understanding fundamental geometric concepts. Universe is built on math and the society is built on math and writing. I'm not denying Kerbal and Minecraft are stimulating for kids but no way can they replace the fundamentals. In the general sense. If we categorize kids time into 'education' and playtime ( both of which are important!) I would categorize minecraft and kerbal into the play section.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

TeMPOraL 9y ago

You know what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game. No one is getting fooled by that. As for good games with educational value, I'd point to obvious examples like Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics), Minecraft (can make kids learn to program), Zachtronics games like SpaceChem or Shenzhen I/O, and ultimately any narrative-heavy game as a good way for kids from non-English-speaking countries to learn English.

PascLeRasc 9y ago
I'd put Civ5 and Portal into the "accidentally educational" category too. Funnily enough you could give your kids Ubuntu and they could play all these games and learn a little about Linux too.
fsloth 9y ago
"...what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game." Yeah, basically anything in that category except perhaps for rote memorization of multiplication tables is better done by a human teacher and static quality educational materials. "Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics)," With a) MSc in physics b) two kids in school c) over 700 hours spent personally in Kerbal I disagree. It does not really teach math and claiming it does is delusional. However, it does give a pretty intuitive introduction into orbital dynamics. It's a fun game. And there's nothing wrong in that category! Fun and games are as important as learning, but these two categories are complementary. Pretending one is the other does not really help anyone. It's confounding to confuse the two as a parent who has to consider how the kids spend their time (i.e how screen time is rationed). If my kids want to play Kerbal, it's rationed from the "digital games" category and not "educational". For me "educational and character building" category includes stuff like 3D modeling, playing and mixing music, creating stop motion animation, etc. The latter they can do as much as they like.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I wrote "makes 12 years old learn the math" not to imply KSP teaches math by itself, but to observe that it motivates kids to go and learn the math on their own, and to enjoy it. If you take a look at the community around KSP, you'll find plenty of kids learning math and physics to better understand what their spacecrafts are doing and how to make better ones. Reminds me of how I learned trigonometry myself - I hated it at school, but learned it immediately - along with basic matrix/vector linear algebra - once I needed it to rotate stuff in a game I was writing. This brings me to my core issue with edutainment - fake problems. Bite-sized issues designed to "teach" a kid a particular concept, which can be immediately recognized for what they are - school after school. Fake problems are not fun. Meaningful problems - those working within the context of a game world that stands on its own, like "wtf is ∆v, how does it work and how do I ballpark the amount of it in my rocket" - those are fun and motivating.