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> why are they not as appalled about the mass surveillance used by their own government on their own fellow citizens? I just read the piece, and I think you're

> why are they not as appalled about the mass surveillance used by their own government on their own fellow citizens? I just read the piece, and I think you're being deliberately uncharitable. The rationale behind not offering a wholesale pardon appears to be based in the notion that not everything he leaked actually deserved to be leaked - which is quite orthogonal to the accusation that they're somehow laissez faire on domestic surveillance.

atlantic 9y ago
Don't forget that he never actually leaked anything. He stole data but did not place it in the public domain. Instead, he handed it over to a group of journalists who were given the function of filtering the data before publication. To date, only about 5% of Snowden's material has been published.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > He stole data but did not place it in the public domain. Instead, he handed it over to a group of journalists who were given the function of filtering the data before publication I understand that, but strictly speaking it's not relevant. He stole the data, and is therefore responsible for whatever eventually gets disseminated - good and ill alike. As far as ownership goes, it doesn't really matter if it was eventually published via the Guardian, Wikileaks or his nextdoor neighbor.
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
Am I being unfair? Let's imagine for a bit what WP would write if a Chinese Snowden escaped China with a drive full of state secrets and sought asylum in the US. Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? Or do you think it'd hail them as a hero who defied an oppresive regime to bring the free world the truth etc etc? Because I can imagine very well what the Western press, in general, would say in such a case. The article even points out that Snowden can basically forget about having a fair chance to represent himself, if he gives himself up to the US justice- for security! How likely do you think it is that our hypothetical Chinese hero would get a better chance at a fair trial in China? Miniscule, of course. And wouldn't the WP be the first to point out that this is a major reason not to deliver the hero to the tyrannical Chinese? In the case of Snowden though, it's just brushed aside- eh, so, he can't have a fair trial, it's his own fault, c'est la vie, he should do the time like proper civil disobedience practitioners- well, except for the ones who escape from the oppressive regimes in their countries and seek asylum in the West, that is. That's "the best tradition" too, I guess. No, I don't think I'm being unfair. I think it's fair to say that the Western press, even the liberal press, is always eager to do the state's job for it, and publish what are essentially propaganda pieces. The article above is exactly that- anti-Chinese propaganda. It draws the attention to the oppressive surveillance of its citizens by the Chinese state, which is fair and proper to do; but at the same time it ignores the 195 kg Gorilla gorilla in the room: that the US state itself is doing exactly the same. It is very easy to see articles like that as a deliberate attempt to show our Western democracies in a positive light, compared to the oppressive, undemocratic regimes that just so happen to also be our political and economic rivals. I, for one, in the light of the previous article on Snowden, certainly do.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? First of all, you're arguing based on a hypothetical. I don't agree with your foregone conclusions, and there's little utility in debating them since your entire scenario is fictional. Secondly, the article you linked to didn't call for extradition. > The article above is exactly that- anti-Chinese propaganda. It draws the attention to the oppressive surveillance of its citizens by the Chinese state, which is fair and proper to do; but at the same time it ignores the 195 kg Gorilla gorilla in the room: that the US state itself is doing exactly the same. Disagree, since it specifically highlights similarities (and differences) between Chinese and US surveillance programs. They are quite clearly not "exactly the same", even in light of the Snowden revelations. > It is very easy to see articles like that as a deliberate attempt to show our Western democracies in a positive light, compared to the oppressive, undemocratic regimes that just so happen to also be our political and economic rivals. The US is far from perfect, but the amount of state supervision and intrusion into private life is an order of magnitude greater in China. Whether that's positive or negative is subjective, but the fundamental fact is inarguable.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer, and I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. There may be a difference (I wouldn't call it "inarguable" based only on articles in the Western media, really) but it's more like the difference in falling from 1500 and 1200 feet- not the difference between falling and not falling, say. Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. We could look at cases where exactly what I say has happened. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      > I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I > I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. The fact that both are bad in no way means both are remotely equivalent - far less equivalent than your altitude analogy would imply > Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc. I'm apparently reasonable enough to recognize the world has changed since the cold war - not least of which China - sufficiently so that it's hardly a reasonable point of comparison

atlantic 9y ago

Don't forget that he never actually leaked anything. He stole data but did not place it in the public domain. Instead, he handed it over to a group of journalists who were given the function of filtering the data before publication. To date, only about 5% of Snowden's material has been published.

doktrin 9y ago
> He stole data but did not place it in the public domain. Instead, he handed it over to a group of journalists who were given the function of filtering the data before publication I understand that, but strictly speaking it's not relevant. He stole the data, and is therefore responsible for whatever eventually gets disseminated - good and ill alike. As far as ownership goes, it doesn't really matter if it was eventually published via the Guardian, Wikileaks or his nextdoor neighbor.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

Am I being unfair? Let's imagine for a bit what WP would write if a Chinese Snowden escaped China with a drive full of state secrets and sought asylum in the US. Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? Or do you think it'd hail them as a hero who defied an oppresive regime to bring the free world the truth etc etc? Because I can imagine very well what the Western press, in general, would say in such a case. The article even points out that Snowden can basically forget about having a fair chance to represent himself, if he gives himself up to the US justice- for security! How likely do you think it is that our hypothetical Chinese hero would get a better chance at a fair trial in China? Miniscule, of course. And wouldn't the WP be the first to point out that this is a major reason not to deliver the hero to the tyrannical Chinese? In the case of Snowden though, it's just brushed aside- eh, so, he can't have a fair trial, it's his own fault, c'est la vie, he should do the time like proper civil disobedience practitioners- well, except for the ones who escape from the oppressive regimes in their countries and seek asylum in the West, that is. That's "the best tradition" too, I guess. No, I don't think I'm being unfair. I think it's fair to say that the Western press, even the liberal press, is always eager to do the state's job for it, and publish what are essentially propaganda pieces. The article above is exactly that- anti-Chinese propaganda. It draws the attention to the oppressive surveillance of its citizens by the Chinese state, which is fair and proper to do; but at the same time it ignores the 195 kg Gorilla gorilla in the room: that the US state itself is doing exactly the same. It is very easy to see articles like that as a deliberate attempt to show our Western democracies in a positive light, compared to the oppressive, undemocratic regimes that just so happen to also be our political and economic rivals. I, for one, in the light of the previous article on Snowden, certainly do.

doktrin 9y ago
> Do you think it'd ask for them to be extradited, so that they could be punished for breaking the law in their country? First of all, you're arguing based on a hypothetical. I don't agree with your foregone conclusions, and there's little utility in debating them since your entire scenario is fictional. Secondly, the article you linked to didn't call for extradition. > The article above is exactly that- anti-Chinese propaganda. It draws the attention to the oppressive surveillance of its citizens by the Chinese state, which is fair and proper to do; but at the same time it ignores the 195 kg Gorilla gorilla in the room: that the US state itself is doing exactly the same. Disagree, since it specifically highlights similarities (and differences) between Chinese and US surveillance programs. They are quite clearly not "exactly the same", even in light of the Snowden revelations. > It is very easy to see articles like that as a deliberate attempt to show our Western democracies in a positive light, compared to the oppressive, undemocratic regimes that just so happen to also be our political and economic rivals. The US is far from perfect, but the amount of state supervision and intrusion into private life is an order of magnitude greater in China. Whether that's positive or negative is subjective, but the fundamental fact is inarguable.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer, and I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. There may be a difference (I wouldn't call it "inarguable" based only on articles in the Western media, really) but it's more like the difference in falling from 1500 and 1200 feet- not the difference between falling and not falling, say. Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. We could look at cases where exactly what I say has happened. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > I am en EU citizen, therefore an outside observer I don't recall asking, but while we're throwing bona fides around - so am I > I find the amount of state surveillance in both China and the US to be way beyond what is acceptable. The fact that both are bad in no way means both are remotely equivalent - far less equivalent than your altitude analogy would imply > Btw, I don't think you're as reasonable as you think, in not wanting to discuss the kind of hypothetical scenario I'm proposing. It was very common back in the days of the Cold War with people defecting from the USSR to the US, etc. I'm apparently reasonable enough to recognize the world has changed since the cold war - not least of which China - sufficiently so that it's hardly a reasonable point of comparison