8 ms·

Red Dawn in Lapland

105 points by Thevet 9y ago

joelrunyon 9y ago
Terribly interesting. I ran an ultra marathon in Lapland last winter and it's an incredible, surreal place. Also, it was very interesting to see the pseudo-paranoia some of our hosts (here and in Estonia) had about Russia. One made the point to me that "your paranoia is justified when you've been occupied on and off so many times over the last century."
- mstade 9y ago
  The paranoia is real. I'm of Swedish-Baltic descent and since a very early age was taught that Russians are not to be trusted, for the very reason you mention (occupation.) This paranoia runs very deep in Baltic culture, in my experience, however in Swedish culture much less so – presumably because we don't share a border with Russia. Not gonna lie, when Russia entered Crimea I got a pit in my stomach.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > Not gonna lie, when Russia entered Crimea I got a pit in my stomach. Exactly. Same for everybody I know in Northern Poland, Lithuania and Latvia.
  - walkingolof 9y ago
    Dont know if your old enough to done military service in Sweden, but as the saying goes, all guns points the east. There is no confusion about why we are rebuilding our defense for in Sweden. We have +3000 KM coast line in Sweden, large part in the Baltics, so we too share a border with Russia. In any case if you forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
    - jacobush 9y ago
      håll gränsen
    - mstade 9y ago
      Fair enough, but no land border, which significantly simplifies the logistics of an attack. My point about the nonchalance in Swedish culture towards Russian aggression however is less about those involved or otherwise supportive of the military – they are all but certain to keep it top of mind – but with the rest who seem to either actively campaign against the military under some naive assumption that "surely not here, we're friends!" or simply don't care. Swedes simply don't have that deep rooted paranoia (for lack of better word – strong worry perhaps) that you'll see in for instance the Baltic states. Quite possibly because while we may have had incidents, there have been no occupation or all out conflict for so long while with the Baltic states, and indeed Finland, it's still fresh in mind.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > Also, it was very interesting to see the pseudo-paranoia some of our hosts (here and in Estonia) had about Russia. All of the Baltics have this, not without reason. Keep in mind too that Kaliningrad is Russian and that the shortest path between Russia major and Kaliningrad runs right through Lithuania, just a little bit North of the Polish border. With what happened in Ukraine in recent memory you can't really fault the people there for being paranoid.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > With what happened in Ukraine in recent memory you can't really fault the people there for being paranoid. With what happened in the Ukraine, you can't fairly describe the fears of Russian action in the region as paranoia.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      That would not have been my choice of words but it was the original posters', I'd prefer the term 'prepared'.
    - joelrunyon 9y ago
      This was the Estonian's words, not mine. He meant it in a "joking, but totally serious" tone.
    - bonesss 9y ago
      Paranoia implies delusion, but just because delusion has some anchor in reality doesn't mean that there aren't delusional aspects to it. "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not after you", and it's corollary "just because they're after you doesn't mean that you can't be paranoid". ;)
brabel 9y ago
They are glorifying a brutal war that nobody could win. Sad to see war preparation rather than friendship and dialog in response to instability.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  When you have a dictatorship next door that has already invaded at least one other country recently being prepared is a pretty good strategy.
  - brabel 9y ago
    You're buying into the media narrative which paints Russia as the devil. Russia is not a dictatorship, Putin has overwhelming support from the population but could be ousted by elections quite easily. The Ukraine conflict is far more complex than you see on the news. I have family in Ukraine and know that Russia actually had some good reasons to take Krimea back (it was Russia for hundreds of years and most people living there are ethnic Russians), most of the population there is happy about it (not comparable to Finland at all).
    - classicsnoot 9y ago
      It is hard to measure popular support for a guy that controls the state apparatuses for secret policing and surveillance. I actually like Putin, but i am an authoritarian hawk, so that is no ringing endorsement. I studied under Alex Moytle, a Ukrainian Specialist, and a day didn't go by that Putin wasn't discussed. The joke was always about the official government pollster calling the average Russian and asking them who they support... on their landline which was set up by the official government supported telecom. "Da tovarisch, of course i fully support Putin!" Even funnier is when RF supporters say that the Crimean population supported the invasion. "hello citizen, i am man in unmarked tactical gear with totally Hungarian rifle! Do you support the side with a full air wing of Hind Ds flying over you at this moment?" The argument for majority support is pointless if there is no way to accurately gauge true sentiment. Best to leave the argument out when justifying an illegal invasion of sovereign territory.
Jhsto 9y ago
I think self-sufficiency is also worth mentioning. The state owns a monopoly in railways and a stake in a national airline. Also, most equipment is produced within Finland (Nokia even made assault rifle ammunition at one point), supposedly to minimize shortage in case of war. Moreover, about survival, I recall tactics for nuclear war. The instructions were to take cover and use spruce branches to shake off the fallout, and then continue fighting.
- kaitai 9y ago
  I seem to remember something about fireplaces or wood stoves being required in new construction, as well, in order to maintain energy independence on an individual-house basis if necessary.
  - Jhsto 9y ago
    Fireplaces make sense, as now I recall that you get subsidies if you have a car which is able to turn gasoline into electricity.
  - jpalomaki 9y ago
    It is not so uncommon to have problems with electricity distribution during heavy snow fall in the country side. Especially when the temperature is close to zero, the snow is heavy and may cause the trees to bend on power lines causing power outages.
sbmthakur 9y ago
I believe Russian paranoia in Finland is justified. And recalling how Fins cozied up to the Nazis, I guess it's pretty much same for the Russians.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > And recalling how Fins cozied up to the Nazis Not until after they were rebuffed by Sweden and Great Britain, there was no way they were going to stand up to Russia in the longer term without outside help.
  - nikanj 9y ago
    We would have preferred a deal with the devil, but Hitler had tanks and guns.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    A lot of people felt a little guilty about it afterwards, on both the Allied side and the Finnish side, I think.
- skrebbel 9y ago
  As an outsider who lived in Finland, I agree the paranoia about Russia is real and I disagree that it's justified. Unlike the Baltics, there is no sizeable Russian minority that "needs protection" nor is Finland in the way between a Russian exclave such as Kaliningrad. There is no geopolitical reason to invade Finland and there is also no economical reason to do so. Most companies are foreign owned and would be pulled out of Finland the moment an invasion would start. The main natural resource of Finland is trees, which Russia has more than plenty of. Adding Finland to Russia simply solves no problem whatsoever, perceived or real. Finns ignore this. They're paranoid because their parents taught them to, whose parents taught them to until you reach turtles.
  - T-A 9y ago
    Finns remember it happening before, for the reasons stated in the article: > Finland mattered because of its perch above the Baltic Sea and because its southeastern border with the Soviet Union was less than 20 miles from Leningrad. If the Germans took Finland, they would be dangerously close to this Red Army stronghold. Just substitute Russia for "the Soviet Union", NATO for "the Germans".
ensiferum 9y ago
I think the best defense for Finland would be to have a couple of nukes pointed at Moscow. You know.. just as a stabilizer.
- 1001101 9y ago
  Motti (chopped wood) tactics, and the White Death served them well in the Winter War.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I doubt nukes are a good idea for a small country, but you need a high threshold for the aggressor, I.e “we know you’ll defeat us in a week if you try, but it will always cost more than you are willing to pay”. A good second strike capability is key. Sadly both Finland and Sweden reduced that capability in the last 20 years (see e.g Sweden’s road airbase System). Defense is only a four now after Crimea - and a proper invasion defense might never exist again. A more reasonable defense than both nukes and a defense against a massive invasion would be a second strike ability through sub launched (conventional) cruise missiles or similar. Something that hurts and also is guaranteed to last a week.
fishcolorbrick 9y ago
@PeopleOfFinland, one of those Twitter accounts that is run by a different person every week, was ran by a Saami indigenous person native to Lapland last week and they had some criticism of this style of article where Lapland is portrayed as wilderness without reference to the Saami, who've lived there for 10k years. https://twitter.com/PeopleOfFinland/status/950062243323969542 https://twitter.com/PeopleOfFinland/status/95006224332396954...
- bmelton 9y ago
  Coincidentally, in looking for Christmas movies for the holidays, I stumbled across "Rare Exports: A Christmas Tale[1]". I won't go into spoilers, but a) it was an unexpectedly smart horror film , and b) seemed to be rooted in actual mythology. Of course, as I knew nothing of the Saami people of Lapland, I started delving into them, their associations with Santa and Christmas, etc., and learned that they've been treated with a great deal of disrespect[2], which actually help to put some parts of the movie in context. Particularly disturbing to me was this passage in the Wiki: The genetic makeup of Sami people has been extensively studied for as long as such research has been in existence. Ethnographic photography of the Sami began with the invention of the camera in the 19th century.[137] This continued on into the 1920s and 1930s, when Sami were photographed naked and anatomically measured by scientists, with the help of the local police—sometimes at gunpoint—to collect data that would justify their own racial theories. [1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Discrimination_against_the_Sami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Discrimination_aga...
  - nabla9 9y ago
    You might enjoy the goofy origin story of Santa Claus in Lappland https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/opinion/santa-christmas-mushrooms.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/opinion/santa-christmas-m...
  - WillyOnWheels 9y ago
    best Sami movie is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(1987_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(1987_film)
walkingolof 9y ago
Factoid: Large areas of both Finland and Sweden has been historically called Lapland, I never know which one they write about when you see it in a headline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi
Zeebrommer 9y ago
Times have changed. If Russia were to invade Finland today, they wouldn't do it in the midst of winter, with large armies along roads that can easily be cut off. I think the Fins are right in preparing for the worst, or as the department of Defense puts it "messaging about where the limits are". I am very curious about what kind of warfare they are expecting from the east though.
- dyyni 9y ago
  >I am very curious about what kind of warfare they are expecting from the east though. What they're prepared for is a "strategic strike" and/or a limited scale invasion which is a part of a larger conflict in Europe. Combined arms and fast pace, but not a hybrid war like in Crimea or a separate war where Russia is only engaged in Finland. The Finnish Army reformed their doctrine quite recently [1] with the goal of ensuring adequate performance with lesser troops (war time strength has been reduced significantly in the 2000s). [1] video with Eng subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crAx8kibis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crAx8kibis
- jernfrost 9y ago
  I think you overestimate the Russians grossly. They screwed up in countless wars since then against small nations. They couldn't take out Czeczenia. They failed in Afghanistan. Why should they succeed in Finland. Russia is capable of dealing with long drawn out battles on home turf. They have not displayed that great ability to invade. To be real, neither has really the US either. You can't underestimate an opponent fighting on home turf for their own independence against an opponent, where the soldiers don't really see the reason why they are invading in the first place. Also remember for whatever tech or equipment the Russians have. They have really shitty democratic traditions. They don't let their men work independently. History has shown again and again that top heavy armies are ineffective. It is how Israel beat 3x bigger Arab armies, even when the Arabs had better tech.
  - linkregister 9y ago
    > They have not displayed that great ability to invade. To be real, neither has really the US either. Russian and American forces successfully invaded German-occupied territory and Germany in the second world war.
huhtenberg 9y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that Finland was a part of the Russian Empire from 1806 to 1917. It had a fair amount of autonomy, but it was a part of Russia still. The "Winter War" was in 1939, which puts it just 20 years after Fins used the post-revolution mess and declared their independence.
pmoriarty 9y ago
Fascinating article, but I wish it had also described what was happening on the Russian side of the border. The Finns are not the only ones who've learned lessons from the Winter War. If Russia has any plans for another invasion, you can be sure they would be keen not to get humiliated a second time. No doubt the Russians are making their own contingency plans, and undergoing their own cold-weather training in freezing terrain that Russia itself has no shortage of. It's unlikely that they would go in to Finland unprepared again.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Homecourt advantage.
ataturk 9y ago
The anti-Trump bs was unwelcome. Anyone with any savvy can see what Trump is and what he is doing: Putting America and the interests of American citizens first and foremost. It's not like it's any huge mystery. It is very welcome that the US finally has a President who doesn't drink and who is dead honest about his policies. And if the Finns think the US would sell them out, to that I say "come on!" For the first time in a decade, the US is going to abide by its alliances. BUT--we're not longer your doormat for defense, which means Europe needs to step up. As far as Russia goes, the US and Russia are not exactly going to become allies except where fighting the oligarchs who are wrecking the west goes. Ukraine was caused by the US Intelligence Agencies meddling there, forcing Russia's hand, not the other way around. I really don't think it's a repeat of Stalinism. Don't forget that the Finns became part of the Axis by allying with Nazi Germany for awhile. Only Norway fought the good fight. I still admire the bravery of the Finns in the Winter War.
WillyOnWheels 9y ago
photos of the course the Finnish forces invited the US squad to https://imgur.com/gallery/Wc3P1 https://imgur.com/gallery/Wc3P1
Djamel2017 9y ago
Propoganda bullshit
Bromskloss 9y ago
Oh, I thought we were talking about something else: _Space Invasion of Lapland_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invasion_of_Lapland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invasion_of_Lapland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Dxo8tYU3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Dxo8tYU3M
minipci1321 9y ago
possibly of interest: http://beaufortmagazine.fi/2014/08/seven-years-sailing/ http://beaufortmagazine.fi/2014/08/seven-years-sailing/

105 points by Thevet 9y ago

Terribly interesting. I ran an ultra marathon in Lapland last winter and it's an incredible, surreal place. Also, it was very interesting to see the pseudo-paranoia some of our hosts (here and in Estonia) had about Russia. One made the point to me that "your paranoia is justified when you've been occupied on and off so many times over the last century."

mstade 9y ago
The paranoia is real. I'm of Swedish-Baltic descent and since a very early age was taught that Russians are not to be trusted, for the very reason you mention (occupation.) This paranoia runs very deep in Baltic culture, in my experience, however in Swedish culture much less so – presumably because we don't share a border with Russia. Not gonna lie, when Russia entered Crimea I got a pit in my stomach.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > Not gonna lie, when Russia entered Crimea I got a pit in my stomach. Exactly. Same for everybody I know in Northern Poland, Lithuania and Latvia.
- walkingolof 9y ago
  Dont know if your old enough to done military service in Sweden, but as the saying goes, all guns points the east. There is no confusion about why we are rebuilding our defense for in Sweden. We have +3000 KM coast line in Sweden, large part in the Baltics, so we too share a border with Russia. In any case if you forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
  - jacobush 9y ago
    håll gränsen
  - mstade 9y ago
    Fair enough, but no land border, which significantly simplifies the logistics of an attack. My point about the nonchalance in Swedish culture towards Russian aggression however is less about those involved or otherwise supportive of the military – they are all but certain to keep it top of mind – but with the rest who seem to either actively campaign against the military under some naive assumption that "surely not here, we're friends!" or simply don't care. Swedes simply don't have that deep rooted paranoia (for lack of better word – strong worry perhaps) that you'll see in for instance the Baltic states. Quite possibly because while we may have had incidents, there have been no occupation or all out conflict for so long while with the Baltic states, and indeed Finland, it's still fresh in mind.
jacquesm 9y ago
> Also, it was very interesting to see the pseudo-paranoia some of our hosts (here and in Estonia) had about Russia. All of the Baltics have this, not without reason. Keep in mind too that Kaliningrad is Russian and that the shortest path between Russia major and Kaliningrad runs right through Lithuania, just a little bit North of the Polish border. With what happened in Ukraine in recent memory you can't really fault the people there for being paranoid.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > With what happened in Ukraine in recent memory you can't really fault the people there for being paranoid. With what happened in the Ukraine, you can't fairly describe the fears of Russian action in the region as paranoia.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    That would not have been my choice of words but it was the original posters', I'd prefer the term 'prepared'.
  - joelrunyon 9y ago
    This was the Estonian's words, not mine. He meant it in a "joking, but totally serious" tone.
  - bonesss 9y ago
    Paranoia implies delusion, but just because delusion has some anchor in reality doesn't mean that there aren't delusional aspects to it. "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not after you", and it's corollary "just because they're after you doesn't mean that you can't be paranoid". ;)

brabel 9y ago

They are glorifying a brutal war that nobody could win. Sad to see war preparation rather than friendship and dialog in response to instability.

jacquesm 9y ago
When you have a dictatorship next door that has already invaded at least one other country recently being prepared is a pretty good strategy.
- brabel 9y ago
  You're buying into the media narrative which paints Russia as the devil. Russia is not a dictatorship, Putin has overwhelming support from the population but could be ousted by elections quite easily. The Ukraine conflict is far more complex than you see on the news. I have family in Ukraine and know that Russia actually had some good reasons to take Krimea back (it was Russia for hundreds of years and most people living there are ethnic Russians), most of the population there is happy about it (not comparable to Finland at all).
  - classicsnoot 9y ago
    It is hard to measure popular support for a guy that controls the state apparatuses for secret policing and surveillance. I actually like Putin, but i am an authoritarian hawk, so that is no ringing endorsement. I studied under Alex Moytle, a Ukrainian Specialist, and a day didn't go by that Putin wasn't discussed. The joke was always about the official government pollster calling the average Russian and asking them who they support... on their landline which was set up by the official government supported telecom. "Da tovarisch, of course i fully support Putin!" Even funnier is when RF supporters say that the Crimean population supported the invasion. "hello citizen, i am man in unmarked tactical gear with totally Hungarian rifle! Do you support the side with a full air wing of Hind Ds flying over you at this moment?" The argument for majority support is pointless if there is no way to accurately gauge true sentiment. Best to leave the argument out when justifying an illegal invasion of sovereign territory.

Jhsto 9y ago

I think self-sufficiency is also worth mentioning. The state owns a monopoly in railways and a stake in a national airline. Also, most equipment is produced within Finland (Nokia even made assault rifle ammunition at one point), supposedly to minimize shortage in case of war. Moreover, about survival, I recall tactics for nuclear war. The instructions were to take cover and use spruce branches to shake off the fallout, and then continue fighting.

kaitai 9y ago
I seem to remember something about fireplaces or wood stoves being required in new construction, as well, in order to maintain energy independence on an individual-house basis if necessary.
- Jhsto 9y ago
  Fireplaces make sense, as now I recall that you get subsidies if you have a car which is able to turn gasoline into electricity.
- jpalomaki 9y ago
  It is not so uncommon to have problems with electricity distribution during heavy snow fall in the country side. Especially when the temperature is close to zero, the snow is heavy and may cause the trees to bend on power lines causing power outages.

sbmthakur 9y ago

I believe Russian paranoia in Finland is justified. And recalling how Fins cozied up to the Nazis, I guess it's pretty much same for the Russians.

jacquesm 9y ago
> And recalling how Fins cozied up to the Nazis Not until after they were rebuffed by Sweden and Great Britain, there was no way they were going to stand up to Russia in the longer term without outside help.
- nikanj 9y ago
  We would have preferred a deal with the devil, but Hitler had tanks and guns.
- jacobush 9y ago
  A lot of people felt a little guilty about it afterwards, on both the Allied side and the Finnish side, I think.
skrebbel 9y ago
As an outsider who lived in Finland, I agree the paranoia about Russia is real and I disagree that it's justified. Unlike the Baltics, there is no sizeable Russian minority that "needs protection" nor is Finland in the way between a Russian exclave such as Kaliningrad. There is no geopolitical reason to invade Finland and there is also no economical reason to do so. Most companies are foreign owned and would be pulled out of Finland the moment an invasion would start. The main natural resource of Finland is trees, which Russia has more than plenty of. Adding Finland to Russia simply solves no problem whatsoever, perceived or real. Finns ignore this. They're paranoid because their parents taught them to, whose parents taught them to until you reach turtles.
- T-A 9y ago
  Finns remember it happening before, for the reasons stated in the article: > Finland mattered because of its perch above the Baltic Sea and because its southeastern border with the Soviet Union was less than 20 miles from Leningrad. If the Germans took Finland, they would be dangerously close to this Red Army stronghold. Just substitute Russia for "the Soviet Union", NATO for "the Germans".

ensiferum 9y ago

I think the best defense for Finland would be to have a couple of nukes pointed at Moscow. You know.. just as a stabilizer.

1001101 9y ago
Motti (chopped wood) tactics, and the White Death served them well in the Winter War.
alkonaut 9y ago
I doubt nukes are a good idea for a small country, but you need a high threshold for the aggressor, I.e “we know you’ll defeat us in a week if you try, but it will always cost more than you are willing to pay”. A good second strike capability is key. Sadly both Finland and Sweden reduced that capability in the last 20 years (see e.g Sweden’s road airbase System). Defense is only a four now after Crimea - and a proper invasion defense might never exist again. A more reasonable defense than both nukes and a defense against a massive invasion would be a second strike ability through sub launched (conventional) cruise missiles or similar. Something that hurts and also is guaranteed to last a week.

fishcolorbrick 9y ago

@PeopleOfFinland, one of those Twitter accounts that is run by a different person every week, was ran by a Saami indigenous person native to Lapland last week and they had some criticism of this style of article where Lapland is portrayed as wilderness without reference to the Saami, who've lived there for 10k years. https://twitter.com/PeopleOfFinland/status/950062243323969542 https://twitter.com/PeopleOfFinland/status/95006224332396954...

bmelton 9y ago
Coincidentally, in looking for Christmas movies for the holidays, I stumbled across "Rare Exports: A Christmas Tale[1]". I won't go into spoilers, but a) it was an unexpectedly smart horror film , and b) seemed to be rooted in actual mythology. Of course, as I knew nothing of the Saami people of Lapland, I started delving into them, their associations with Santa and Christmas, etc., and learned that they've been treated with a great deal of disrespect[2], which actually help to put some parts of the movie in context. Particularly disturbing to me was this passage in the Wiki: The genetic makeup of Sami people has been extensively studied for as long as such research has been in existence. Ethnographic photography of the Sami began with the invention of the camera in the 19th century.[137] This continued on into the 1920s and 1930s, when Sami were photographed naked and anatomically measured by scientists, with the help of the local police—sometimes at gunpoint—to collect data that would justify their own racial theories. [1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Discrimination_against_the_Sami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Discrimination_aga...
- nabla9 9y ago
  You might enjoy the goofy origin story of Santa Claus in Lappland https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/opinion/santa-christmas-mushrooms.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/opinion/santa-christmas-m...
- WillyOnWheels 9y ago
  best Sami movie is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(1987_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(1987_film)

walkingolof 9y ago

Factoid: Large areas of both Finland and Sweden has been historically called Lapland, I never know which one they write about when you see it in a headline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi

Zeebrommer 9y ago

Times have changed. If Russia were to invade Finland today, they wouldn't do it in the midst of winter, with large armies along roads that can easily be cut off. I think the Fins are right in preparing for the worst, or as the department of Defense puts it "messaging about where the limits are". I am very curious about what kind of warfare they are expecting from the east though.

dyyni 9y ago
>I am very curious about what kind of warfare they are expecting from the east though. What they're prepared for is a "strategic strike" and/or a limited scale invasion which is a part of a larger conflict in Europe. Combined arms and fast pace, but not a hybrid war like in Crimea or a separate war where Russia is only engaged in Finland. The Finnish Army reformed their doctrine quite recently [1] with the goal of ensuring adequate performance with lesser troops (war time strength has been reduced significantly in the 2000s). [1] video with Eng subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crAx8kibis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crAx8kibis
jernfrost 9y ago
I think you overestimate the Russians grossly. They screwed up in countless wars since then against small nations. They couldn't take out Czeczenia. They failed in Afghanistan. Why should they succeed in Finland. Russia is capable of dealing with long drawn out battles on home turf. They have not displayed that great ability to invade. To be real, neither has really the US either. You can't underestimate an opponent fighting on home turf for their own independence against an opponent, where the soldiers don't really see the reason why they are invading in the first place. Also remember for whatever tech or equipment the Russians have. They have really shitty democratic traditions. They don't let their men work independently. History has shown again and again that top heavy armies are ineffective. It is how Israel beat 3x bigger Arab armies, even when the Arabs had better tech.
- linkregister 9y ago
  > They have not displayed that great ability to invade. To be real, neither has really the US either. Russian and American forces successfully invaded German-occupied territory and Germany in the second world war.

huhtenberg 9y ago

One thing to keep in mind is that Finland was a part of the Russian Empire from 1806 to 1917. It had a fair amount of autonomy, but it was a part of Russia still. The "Winter War" was in 1939, which puts it just 20 years after Fins used the post-revolution mess and declared their independence.

pmoriarty 9y ago

Fascinating article, but I wish it had also described what was happening on the Russian side of the border. The Finns are not the only ones who've learned lessons from the Winter War. If Russia has any plans for another invasion, you can be sure they would be keen not to get humiliated a second time. No doubt the Russians are making their own contingency plans, and undergoing their own cold-weather training in freezing terrain that Russia itself has no shortage of. It's unlikely that they would go in to Finland unprepared again.

jacquesm 9y ago
Homecourt advantage.

ataturk 9y ago

The anti-Trump bs was unwelcome. Anyone with any savvy can see what Trump is and what he is doing: Putting America and the interests of American citizens first and foremost. It's not like it's any huge mystery. It is very welcome that the US finally has a President who doesn't drink and who is dead honest about his policies. And if the Finns think the US would sell them out, to that I say "come on!" For the first time in a decade, the US is going to abide by its alliances. BUT--we're not longer your doormat for defense, which means Europe needs to step up. As far as Russia goes, the US and Russia are not exactly going to become allies except where fighting the oligarchs who are wrecking the west goes. Ukraine was caused by the US Intelligence Agencies meddling there, forcing Russia's hand, not the other way around. I really don't think it's a repeat of Stalinism. Don't forget that the Finns became part of the Axis by allying with Nazi Germany for awhile. Only Norway fought the good fight. I still admire the bravery of the Finns in the Winter War.

WillyOnWheels 9y ago

photos of the course the Finnish forces invited the US squad to https://imgur.com/gallery/Wc3P1 https://imgur.com/gallery/Wc3P1

Djamel2017 9y ago

Propoganda bullshit

Bromskloss 9y ago

Oh, I thought we were talking about something else: _Space Invasion of Lapland_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invasion_of_Lapland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invasion_of_Lapland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Dxo8tYU3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Dxo8tYU3M

minipci1321 9y ago

possibly of interest: http://beaufortmagazine.fi/2014/08/seven-years-sailing/ http://beaufortmagazine.fi/2014/08/seven-years-sailing/