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How much time have you spent reading what Chinese people have to say? The American version of freedom of thought and expression doesn't seem to have any proble

by hux_ 9y ago

How much time have you spent reading what Chinese people have to say? The American version of freedom of thought and expression doesn't seem to have any problem producing never ending wars, a surveillance state of their own, a dysfunctional culture that produces mindless consumption and celeb worship, a Wall Street and Silicon Valley that openly tells govt - yes what we do has negative uncorrectable effects at population scales, but we are too big to fail so fuck off. This form of freedom isn't scary to you?

jackaroe78 9y ago
I'd love to be able to read what ghe Chinese people have to say
- stretchwithme 9y ago
  Amen. That is the whole point. Please let the Chinese people express themselves unhindered. I often think we need a new global organization that eventually replaces the UN. It would allow direct voting by everyone on the planet. And if a country's dear leaders don't allow that, that country would not get any vote in that body. Which is much better than pretending to have a democracy with dictators. Especially one where a select set of countries, including 2 dictatorships, can overrule anything.
- thewhitetulip 9y ago
  Acc to statistics there are three factions of any group. +2.5% extreme to right -2.5% extreme to left 95% middle the +2.5% are extensively happy -2.5% are extensively unhappy 95% are neutral. ordinary Chinese people who struggle to eat two times daily aren't going to care about democracy vs dictatorship. They don't know what they don't know, they don't know that they are living in a bad system because that's what they have seen. contrast that with those who can go to the US (rich), they know that Chinese govt is bad because there is no freedom of expression.
forapurpose 9y ago
Nobody is saying the U.S. is flawless, but people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. As one simple example, Americans choose who governs them and can openly criticize them. As another, Americans can do all these things you dislike, whether you or the government like it or not. All of the most prosperous, most free countries in the world are democracies. The most prosperous, most free parts of China are democracies (Taiwan and Hong Kong). As Churchill said (reputedly): Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. I wish my brethren in China great freedom, prosperity and peace.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  >people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. This sort of statement is entirely subjective. As a counterpoint, many people in China would say the US is less free and less safe, because the US has by far the most amount of people locked in cages and a higher per capita homicide rate. Whether or not one country is "better" than the other is nationalist subjectivity.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    >> people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. > This sort of statement is entirely subjective It's not at all subjective. There are many objective measurements of prosperity, such as income and wealth per capita, and freedom, such as human rights. Freedom House is a good source for an an objective, annual review of human rights (last I knew; I haven't looked at it in a little while).
- 123ol12313 9y ago
  "Nobody is saying the U.S. is flawless" If you read enough comments online, you will realize that's exactly what all Americans say: they are the best country in the world and they are the freest. First is highly subjective, and second proven to not be true (few European countries are technically freer). "Americans choose who governs them" Bit idealist. Those chosen are of well off families. You can't play in the political game without some form of money to pay for not working in a real job. "most free countries in the world are democracies" True
Molaxx 9y ago
The American version of freedom allows its people to hear multitudes of opinions and voice dissatisfaction from the system. So while the American and western model of government is flawed it has the potential to improve while minimizing violence needed to be employed in the process. This is why although I have much grievences with the current manifestation of the "American way" I still would rather have the American ideals prosper. (I am Not an American, and I very much dislike its culture)
- jochung 9y ago
  Yes but their system is tragically flawed in that it only lets the two most dominant poles compete over the ever shrinking space between them. Without some form of proportional representation, new ideas can be voiced but they can't get independent traction.
  - pmarreck 9y ago
    > Without some form of proportional representation, new ideas can be voiced but they can't get independent traction. That merely requires a change in the democratic voting system which eliminates some perverse incentives: http://instantrunoff.com/instant-runoff-home/ http://instantrunoff.com/instant-runoff-home/
    - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
      >That merely requires a change in the democratic voting system which eliminates some perverse incentives "Merely" seems like an understatement
      - pmarreck 9y ago
        In this case, it is :( I'm hoping states will start with it and maybe one day, federal will follow suit
thewhitetulip 9y ago
I am not American, I am an Indian. Freedom for me is in George Orwell's words (ironically) is "the ability to say 2+2=4 the rest follows." Also, even in US I don't think they have a machine that spies this extensively on their citizens and if there is such a system then they are screwed. my point was, I know that Indian govt doesn't have such a system because the govt funded software contracts go to crony businessmen :P Also, I have spent exactly 0 time in understanding what Chinese people have said because those who don't know tech and are living in their own world are flooded with propaganda by their government. They might say that "we have a faster train in China than what you Indians have" but they forget that in India, I can sit outside my PM's house for a protest, the previous govt fell in the last elections precisely because they were corrupt. At least our govt doesn't raze protesting people with a tank. That is freedom. I'd rather live in a shitty but free country rather than China. Also, Taiwan, Hong Kong say hi.
inventingwithmo 9y ago
Not even remotely, next to total surveillance. I'm not about to disappear for disagreeing with the government.
pmarreck 9y ago
If you are advocating for more control over the recklessness of freedom... You're going to lose.

by hux_ 9y ago

jackaroe78 9y ago

I'd love to be able to read what ghe Chinese people have to say

stretchwithme 9y ago
Amen. That is the whole point. Please let the Chinese people express themselves unhindered. I often think we need a new global organization that eventually replaces the UN. It would allow direct voting by everyone on the planet. And if a country's dear leaders don't allow that, that country would not get any vote in that body. Which is much better than pretending to have a democracy with dictators. Especially one where a select set of countries, including 2 dictatorships, can overrule anything.
thewhitetulip 9y ago
Acc to statistics there are three factions of any group. +2.5% extreme to right -2.5% extreme to left 95% middle the +2.5% are extensively happy -2.5% are extensively unhappy 95% are neutral. ordinary Chinese people who struggle to eat two times daily aren't going to care about democracy vs dictatorship. They don't know what they don't know, they don't know that they are living in a bad system because that's what they have seen. contrast that with those who can go to the US (rich), they know that Chinese govt is bad because there is no freedom of expression.

forapurpose 9y ago

Nobody is saying the U.S. is flawless, but people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. As one simple example, Americans choose who governs them and can openly criticize them. As another, Americans can do all these things you dislike, whether you or the government like it or not. All of the most prosperous, most free countries in the world are democracies. The most prosperous, most free parts of China are democracies (Taiwan and Hong Kong). As Churchill said (reputedly): Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. I wish my brethren in China great freedom, prosperity and peace.

wu-ikkyu 9y ago
>people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. This sort of statement is entirely subjective. As a counterpoint, many people in China would say the US is less free and less safe, because the US has by far the most amount of people locked in cages and a higher per capita homicide rate. Whether or not one country is "better" than the other is nationalist subjectivity.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  >> people in the U.S. are far more free, prosperous, and safe than those in China. > This sort of statement is entirely subjective It's not at all subjective. There are many objective measurements of prosperity, such as income and wealth per capita, and freedom, such as human rights. Freedom House is a good source for an an objective, annual review of human rights (last I knew; I haven't looked at it in a little while).
123ol12313 9y ago
"Nobody is saying the U.S. is flawless" If you read enough comments online, you will realize that's exactly what all Americans say: they are the best country in the world and they are the freest. First is highly subjective, and second proven to not be true (few European countries are technically freer). "Americans choose who governs them" Bit idealist. Those chosen are of well off families. You can't play in the political game without some form of money to pay for not working in a real job. "most free countries in the world are democracies" True

Molaxx 9y ago

The American version of freedom allows its people to hear multitudes of opinions and voice dissatisfaction from the system. So while the American and western model of government is flawed it has the potential to improve while minimizing violence needed to be employed in the process. This is why although I have much grievences with the current manifestation of the "American way" I still would rather have the American ideals prosper. (I am Not an American, and I very much dislike its culture)

jochung 9y ago
Yes but their system is tragically flawed in that it only lets the two most dominant poles compete over the ever shrinking space between them. Without some form of proportional representation, new ideas can be voiced but they can't get independent traction.
- pmarreck 9y ago
  > Without some form of proportional representation, new ideas can be voiced but they can't get independent traction. That merely requires a change in the democratic voting system which eliminates some perverse incentives: http://instantrunoff.com/instant-runoff-home/ http://instantrunoff.com/instant-runoff-home/
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    >That merely requires a change in the democratic voting system which eliminates some perverse incentives "Merely" seems like an understatement
    - pmarreck 9y ago
      In this case, it is :( I'm hoping states will start with it and maybe one day, federal will follow suit

thewhitetulip 9y ago

I am not American, I am an Indian. Freedom for me is in George Orwell's words (ironically) is "the ability to say 2+2=4 the rest follows." Also, even in US I don't think they have a machine that spies this extensively on their citizens and if there is such a system then they are screwed. my point was, I know that Indian govt doesn't have such a system because the govt funded software contracts go to crony businessmen :P Also, I have spent exactly 0 time in understanding what Chinese people have said because those who don't know tech and are living in their own world are flooded with propaganda by their government. They might say that "we have a faster train in China than what you Indians have" but they forget that in India, I can sit outside my PM's house for a protest, the previous govt fell in the last elections precisely because they were corrupt. At least our govt doesn't raze protesting people with a tank. That is freedom. I'd rather live in a shitty but free country rather than China. Also, Taiwan, Hong Kong say hi.

inventingwithmo 9y ago

Not even remotely, next to total surveillance. I'm not about to disappear for disagreeing with the government.

pmarreck 9y ago

If you are advocating for more control over the recklessness of freedom... You're going to lose.