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They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with t

They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with technology culture, but rather due to a problem in other parts of society (gender norms). People on Hacker News think this because they feel safe and accommodated by technology culture and assume that it must be the same for other women.

greenrd 9y ago
Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.
- ioult 9y ago
  > Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. Dismissing opnions you disagree with as inconsequential or belonging to some agenda is essentially the core of political correctness. (At least if with the definition of "things hard to talk about", rather than which words to use). > So what specifically do we need to do in tech? What to do isn't the problem. Not only can you find far better writing on the subject in the wild, but there are people are already doing it. But since you are asking I will give you an example. Hacker culture puts a large, disproportionately so even, emphasis on hobbyism. Stories like the one in the article, getting started when you were young and not doing much else are meriting. For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture at an age (as in seniority) when many boys nor girls aren't particularly sociable with people of the opposite sex and when fitting in is especially important. So when we value things in computer culture other than things with technical merit and instead put merit in peoples backgrounds or the tools they use we do so with a culture that largely isn't accessible to women. Maybe that is vague to you, but not everything is clear cut. As a said, people doing things change this. They give girls opportunities to get excited by technology in their own way. They give women from other fields a chance to get acclimated at tech companies on their own terms. They try to emphasis the things you can do with technology instead of the culture etc.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    > For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture ... I'm not so sure about that. While my initial contact with programming was via other boys in school, most of the following journey I spent absorbing knowledge from faceless entities on the internet. I think that kind of development is quite common among the early starter/hobbyist programmer types. Maybe it's just that initial opportunity of contact that makes all the difference, but otherwise I think hacker culture is pretty ungendered in the interactions of its members.
    - ioult 9y ago
      There is truth to that of course. At the same time it is about percentages. The more "opportunities" you have to do something the more likely it is that you do. If your friends are doing it, you have role models you can identify with, you don't have to give up something that is expected of you etc. all add up. A lot of boys in e.g. the 90s got in to programming because quake was awesome and/or they wanted to be a hacker like Linus. > [...] otherwise I think hacker culture is pretty ungendered in the interactions of its members. I think a large part of the culture can be very macho, even stereotypically so, and that arguing over programming and something like martial arts can be very similar. But it depends on where you look of course.

greenrd 9y ago

Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.

ioult 9y ago
> Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. Dismissing opnions you disagree with as inconsequential or belonging to some agenda is essentially the core of political correctness. (At least if with the definition of "things hard to talk about", rather than which words to use). > So what specifically do we need to do in tech? What to do isn't the problem. Not only can you find far better writing on the subject in the wild, but there are people are already doing it. But since you are asking I will give you an example. Hacker culture puts a large, disproportionately so even, emphasis on hobbyism. Stories like the one in the article, getting started when you were young and not doing much else are meriting. For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture at an age (as in seniority) when many boys nor girls aren't particularly sociable with people of the opposite sex and when fitting in is especially important. So when we value things in computer culture other than things with technical merit and instead put merit in peoples backgrounds or the tools they use we do so with a culture that largely isn't accessible to women. Maybe that is vague to you, but not everything is clear cut. As a said, people doing things change this. They give girls opportunities to get excited by technology in their own way. They give women from other fields a chance to get acclimated at tech companies on their own terms. They try to emphasis the things you can do with technology instead of the culture etc.
- yorwba 9y ago
  > For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture ... I'm not so sure about that. While my initial contact with programming was via other boys in school, most of the following journey I spent absorbing knowledge from faceless entities on the internet. I think that kind of development is quite common among the early starter/hobbyist programmer types. Maybe it's just that initial opportunity of contact that makes all the difference, but otherwise I think hacker culture is pretty ungendered in the interactions of its members.
  - ioult 9y ago
    There is truth to that of course. At the same time it is about percentages. The more "opportunities" you have to do something the more likely it is that you do. If your friends are doing it, you have role models you can identify with, you don't have to give up something that is expected of you etc. all add up. A lot of boys in e.g. the 90s got in to programming because quake was awesome and/or they wanted to be a hacker like Linus. > [...] otherwise I think hacker culture is pretty ungendered in the interactions of its members. I think a large part of the culture can be very macho, even stereotypically so, and that arguing over programming and something like martial arts can be very similar. But it depends on where you look of course.