5 ms·

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and th

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and this article doesn't get close to them. It retreads stigmatizing labels, regurgitates useless advice, and provokes high confidence low value anecdotes. 1. Motivation is a chemical state. You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors. Why do you think Adderall makes you clean your room? It's not a sudden hatred for dust, it's that your baseline motivation to accomplish any task is enhanced and you're in a task rich environment with a messy room. Many other interesting chemical pathways and interventions exist to directly change the frequency and nature of task initiation performance and completion. 2. Environment strongly impacts internal chemical state. Take an "addicted" rat and put her into a rich environment and the apparently highly motivating cocaine reward looses its attraction. Take a minimally athletic human and put a bear behind them and they will run. In neither of the above does a person need to re-evaluate their life and identity, utter crap. My point here is that HN has an unusual respect for technically interesting and accurate news. It's not all gold, but it seems to favor factual pieces over largely emotional and unproductive arguments. Pop-psychology and feel good generic advice blogs are firmly in that second category. Their value has not advanced since the 50s and we should start seeing them as the kind of harmful, anti-scientific, community deviding memes they are. End rant.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
How about banning BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you're basically talking about ego depletion, which has come under fire in the past few years, with what little evidence there was for it coming into doubt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion
- fragmede 9y ago
  How about banning BS-BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you don't believe ADHD is a real disease, which has come under fire in the past few years due to skyrocketing rates of diagnosis, with pop psychologists believing that it's a scam by the pharmaceutical industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivit...
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    Jesus christ, I never said I don't believe in ADHD. Don't put words like that in my mouth.
- iandanforth 9y ago
  I respect the spirit of your response but no. Here are some interesting studies. One of many candidate drug evaluations - https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/17/12/2045/2910067 https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/17/12/2045/2910067 Dosage dependant effects and tolerance - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2530095/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2530095/ Environment protecting against addiction - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22157144/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22157144/ Edit - Couldn't find a good source for the bear thing. Apologies!
  - PragmaticPulp 9y ago
    Reductionist arguments based on narrowly-scoped rodent studies are not appropriate in the context of long-term human motivation. "Motivation is a chemical state" is a tautology in the context of psychology. Every human behavior and emotion derives from the chemical state of the brain. If someone is chronically unsatisfied with their life, would you reduce their concerns to "Happiness is a chemical state"? Stating as much does not add value to the discussion, nor is it actionable. Likewise, in the context of human motivation it's not relevant to discuss rodent lever-pushing behavior following acute administration of large doses of high-potency DAT inhibitors. If someone is unhappy, would you provide links to studies showing that rodent display increased liking behaviors after administration of a potent opioid? Stimulants like Adderall do induce generic motivation in the short-term, but that's not anyone is discussing here. Implying that stimulants are a source of motivation is dangerous advice. The motivational effects are largely temporary, and quickly give way to tolerance. Note that the attention-improving effects mostly remain in this case. Drug abusers who seek motivation-boosting effects from stimulants either give up after tolerance sets in, or they settle into patterns of dose escalation in a futile attempt to outrun tolerance. Dopaminergic stimulant abusers often have extremely high motivation during their binges, but it does not translate to anything useful after marathon obsessive cleaning sessions or internet binges. That's because motivation, in the context of what we're discussing here, is far more complex than just modulating your brain's dopaminergic systems with chemicals. Motivation is a much broader topic that involves discipline, goal-oriented behavior, prioritization, self-reflection, and many other complex phenomena that can't be reduced into a singular brain chemical like dopamine.
- sizzle 9y ago
  His response is sound neuroscience.
- kortex 9y ago
  Irrespective of ego depletion hypothesis, dopamine is still one of the primary modulators of motivation, risk, decision, and impulse. Absolute levels of dopamine, ratios of various subtypes (D1 vs D2 vs ...), and differential activation, in the NA, VTA, and substantia nigra affect everything from the ADHD kid wiggling in his seat, to the gambling addict. Unfortunately, things like dopaminergic drugs are a blunt instrument, and it's not as simple as "add adderall, get productivity". The role of dopamine in risk taking https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038955/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038955/ Dopaminergic Modulation of Risk-Based Decision Making https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2008121 https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2008121 Procrastination and Dopamine Receptor Density https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intrinsic-motivation-and-magical-unicorns/201206/procrastination-and-dopamine-receptor-density https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intrinsic-motivation-an...
allsunny 9y ago
I hear you but any suggestions on what can we do to increase our motivation short of Adderall and bears? Is it a diet thing or.. genetic lottery?
- fragmede 9y ago
  There are non-chemical ways of treating ADHD (which is what Adderall is generally prescribed for. I am not aware of any disease for which bears are a generally accepted treatment, however), so I suspect that non-chemical techniques to combat ADHD may also work for those who's attention issues don't rise to the level of having been professionally diagnosed. Diet is a big one. No (extra) sugar - definitely no soda, cut back on the dessert, no fruit - it's just dessert vegetables). No caffeine - a large highly caffeinated Philz coffee is the legal equivalent of a small amount of meth. No alcohol either. Get enough sleep every night. Get enough physical exercise to take the edge off. No background TV noise. Dim the lights. Get out in nature, which is generally less stimulating - fewer brightly colored billboards, cars, amplified music, etc. Google has a large list for those that don't want to resort to Adderall.
  - allsunny 9y ago
    Damn, you lost me at no caffeine.
  - projektir 9y ago
    And what is the basis for all this?
- trevyn 9y ago
  Imagine an angry bear following you around! :-)
ta76567656 9y ago
Stealing from my favorite retired blogger: "I can make you sad forever just by whispering a few words into your ear." The brain may be "just chemicals" but it's an incredibly complex system of them, to the point where high level abstractions, like "psychology" can be useful. To expand on your model, I would argue that things described in this article, like your fundamental assumptions about yourself and the world are "part of your environment" and therefore part of something which you seem to agree can have an affect on your behavior.
- trevyn 9y ago
  Reference for that quote? Having trouble finding it.
  - ta76567656 9y ago
    Can't remember the article, but I'm paraphrasing http://thelastpsychiatrist.com http://thelastpsychiatrist.com
- pixelperfect 9y ago
  I like that quote. It reminds me of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
canjobear 9y ago
You attack pop-psychology for being unscientific, but cognitive behavioral therapy basically consists of training yourself to think that way and its effectiveness is backed up by many studies of many disorders.
PragmaticPulp 9y ago
Neurotransmitter reductionism is not a useful framework for thinking about motivation. By your definition, every human behavior is a chemical state. That's not a helpful distinction. > You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors. This is dangerous advice, implied or otherwise. You cannot use dopaminergic drugs to modulate motivation in the long-term due to rapid tolerance to the motivational effects of stimulants. Yes, an acute dose of Adderall will provide a burst of energy, but it won't magically motivate you to channel that energy into building a new startup instead of intensely focusing on a video game for the next 6 hours. Stimulants are not a long-term solution to motivation problems for the same reasons that opioids are not a solution to depression. Motivation, happiness, and contentment are all very complex phenomena that cannot be reduced to singular chemicals in the brain. It's true that you can temporarily induce feelings with certain drugs, such as a burst of euphoria from a dose of opioids, but the brain rapidly adjusts to those chemical modulators. Opioids have their place in chronic pain treatment, of course, just as Adderall has its place in chronic ADHD treatment. But we must be clear that the mood and motivation boosting effects of these drugs are a temporary side effect, not a sustainable feature. Motivation is a much more complex phenomenon that is deeply intertwined with human psychology. Dismissing those complexities as simple chemical states that are well-understand from rodent studies is missing the point.
aws_ls 9y ago
Agree. The simple machine analogy got really irritating, when became repetitive. Also had to skip through that boring squirrel moon example - indulgent by their own admission. The newly wed lady, just wrote a few paragraphs about her. And Polly went on a long rambling trip making lot of assumptions (e.g. her over-achieving family). Psychiatrists need to ask more next level questions. Here looks like she just wanted to write a long one, perhaps coinciding with her long walk on a treadmill. To be truthful, I did enjoy some pieces, specifically the 'igniting the dynamite' part as she ends her piece. But If I were the 'sloth', I would be super confused now. Oh My God. I thought I was just lazy and procrastinating type, didn't know I was messed up this bad. Reading this made me realize the futility of asking for advise from strangers, who would end up stereotyping you, into their known contexts. Better to improve life by reading suitable books. Or if need advise may be ask trusted friends - who don't assume context as they know you. Or psychiatry sessions may be better.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

How about banning BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you're basically talking about ego depletion, which has come under fire in the past few years, with what little evidence there was for it coming into doubt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion

fragmede 9y ago
How about banning BS-BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you don't believe ADHD is a real disease, which has come under fire in the past few years due to skyrocketing rates of diagnosis, with pop psychologists believing that it's a scam by the pharmaceutical industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivit...
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  Jesus christ, I never said I don't believe in ADHD. Don't put words like that in my mouth.
iandanforth 9y ago
I respect the spirit of your response but no. Here are some interesting studies. One of many candidate drug evaluations - https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/17/12/2045/2910067 https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/17/12/2045/2910067 Dosage dependant effects and tolerance - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2530095/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2530095/ Environment protecting against addiction - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22157144/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22157144/ Edit - Couldn't find a good source for the bear thing. Apologies!
- PragmaticPulp 9y ago
  Reductionist arguments based on narrowly-scoped rodent studies are not appropriate in the context of long-term human motivation. "Motivation is a chemical state" is a tautology in the context of psychology. Every human behavior and emotion derives from the chemical state of the brain. If someone is chronically unsatisfied with their life, would you reduce their concerns to "Happiness is a chemical state"? Stating as much does not add value to the discussion, nor is it actionable. Likewise, in the context of human motivation it's not relevant to discuss rodent lever-pushing behavior following acute administration of large doses of high-potency DAT inhibitors. If someone is unhappy, would you provide links to studies showing that rodent display increased liking behaviors after administration of a potent opioid? Stimulants like Adderall do induce generic motivation in the short-term, but that's not anyone is discussing here. Implying that stimulants are a source of motivation is dangerous advice. The motivational effects are largely temporary, and quickly give way to tolerance. Note that the attention-improving effects mostly remain in this case. Drug abusers who seek motivation-boosting effects from stimulants either give up after tolerance sets in, or they settle into patterns of dose escalation in a futile attempt to outrun tolerance. Dopaminergic stimulant abusers often have extremely high motivation during their binges, but it does not translate to anything useful after marathon obsessive cleaning sessions or internet binges. That's because motivation, in the context of what we're discussing here, is far more complex than just modulating your brain's dopaminergic systems with chemicals. Motivation is a much broader topic that involves discipline, goal-oriented behavior, prioritization, self-reflection, and many other complex phenomena that can't be reduced into a singular brain chemical like dopamine.
sizzle 9y ago
His response is sound neuroscience.
kortex 9y ago
Irrespective of ego depletion hypothesis, dopamine is still one of the primary modulators of motivation, risk, decision, and impulse. Absolute levels of dopamine, ratios of various subtypes (D1 vs D2 vs ...), and differential activation, in the NA, VTA, and substantia nigra affect everything from the ADHD kid wiggling in his seat, to the gambling addict. Unfortunately, things like dopaminergic drugs are a blunt instrument, and it's not as simple as "add adderall, get productivity". The role of dopamine in risk taking https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038955/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038955/ Dopaminergic Modulation of Risk-Based Decision Making https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2008121 https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2008121 Procrastination and Dopamine Receptor Density https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intrinsic-motivation-and-magical-unicorns/201206/procrastination-and-dopamine-receptor-density https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intrinsic-motivation-an...

allsunny 9y ago

I hear you but any suggestions on what can we do to increase our motivation short of Adderall and bears? Is it a diet thing or.. genetic lottery?

fragmede 9y ago
There are non-chemical ways of treating ADHD (which is what Adderall is generally prescribed for. I am not aware of any disease for which bears are a generally accepted treatment, however), so I suspect that non-chemical techniques to combat ADHD may also work for those who's attention issues don't rise to the level of having been professionally diagnosed. Diet is a big one. No (extra) sugar - definitely no soda, cut back on the dessert, no fruit - it's just dessert vegetables). No caffeine - a large highly caffeinated Philz coffee is the legal equivalent of a small amount of meth. No alcohol either. Get enough sleep every night. Get enough physical exercise to take the edge off. No background TV noise. Dim the lights. Get out in nature, which is generally less stimulating - fewer brightly colored billboards, cars, amplified music, etc. Google has a large list for those that don't want to resort to Adderall.
- allsunny 9y ago
  Damn, you lost me at no caffeine.
- projektir 9y ago
  And what is the basis for all this?
trevyn 9y ago
Imagine an angry bear following you around! :-)

ta76567656 9y ago

Stealing from my favorite retired blogger: "I can make you sad forever just by whispering a few words into your ear." The brain may be "just chemicals" but it's an incredibly complex system of them, to the point where high level abstractions, like "psychology" can be useful. To expand on your model, I would argue that things described in this article, like your fundamental assumptions about yourself and the world are "part of your environment" and therefore part of something which you seem to agree can have an affect on your behavior.

trevyn 9y ago
Reference for that quote? Having trouble finding it.
- ta76567656 9y ago
  Can't remember the article, but I'm paraphrasing http://thelastpsychiatrist.com http://thelastpsychiatrist.com
pixelperfect 9y ago
I like that quote. It reminds me of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

canjobear 9y ago

You attack pop-psychology for being unscientific, but cognitive behavioral therapy basically consists of training yourself to think that way and its effectiveness is backed up by many studies of many disorders.

PragmaticPulp 9y ago

Neurotransmitter reductionism is not a useful framework for thinking about motivation. By your definition, every human behavior is a chemical state. That's not a helpful distinction. > You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors. This is dangerous advice, implied or otherwise. You cannot use dopaminergic drugs to modulate motivation in the long-term due to rapid tolerance to the motivational effects of stimulants. Yes, an acute dose of Adderall will provide a burst of energy, but it won't magically motivate you to channel that energy into building a new startup instead of intensely focusing on a video game for the next 6 hours. Stimulants are not a long-term solution to motivation problems for the same reasons that opioids are not a solution to depression. Motivation, happiness, and contentment are all very complex phenomena that cannot be reduced to singular chemicals in the brain. It's true that you can temporarily induce feelings with certain drugs, such as a burst of euphoria from a dose of opioids, but the brain rapidly adjusts to those chemical modulators. Opioids have their place in chronic pain treatment, of course, just as Adderall has its place in chronic ADHD treatment. But we must be clear that the mood and motivation boosting effects of these drugs are a temporary side effect, not a sustainable feature. Motivation is a much more complex phenomenon that is deeply intertwined with human psychology. Dismissing those complexities as simple chemical states that are well-understand from rodent studies is missing the point.

aws_ls 9y ago

Agree. The simple machine analogy got really irritating, when became repetitive. Also had to skip through that boring squirrel moon example - indulgent by their own admission. The newly wed lady, just wrote a few paragraphs about her. And Polly went on a long rambling trip making lot of assumptions (e.g. her over-achieving family). Psychiatrists need to ask more next level questions. Here looks like she just wanted to write a long one, perhaps coinciding with her long walk on a treadmill. To be truthful, I did enjoy some pieces, specifically the 'igniting the dynamite' part as she ends her piece. But If I were the 'sloth', I would be super confused now. Oh My God. I thought I was just lazy and procrastinating type, didn't know I was messed up this bad. Reading this made me realize the futility of asking for advise from strangers, who would end up stereotyping you, into their known contexts. Better to improve life by reading suitable books. Or if need advise may be ask trusted friends - who don't assume context as they know you. Or psychiatry sessions may be better.