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I think it's partially related to something akin to the prisoner's dilemma: it's a world-wide problem, and "we" might not want to take the financial hit for bei

I think it's partially related to something akin to the prisoner's dilemma: it's a world-wide problem, and "we" might not want to take the financial hit for being the first in leading the cause. I spent quite some time in South-East Asia the past few years, and when you see the sheer amount of boats that just dump all their trash in the ocean, and the sheer lack of awareness of the issue, it makes you hopeless. I come home, diligently recycling my trash, and I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this.

StavrosK 9y ago
"Tragedy of the commons", it's called.
- stingraycharles 9y ago
  Thanks, I never fully understood what people meant with that phrase. :)
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    No problem, it's when something can be improved when everyone does the right thing together, but nobody has any incentive to do the right thing alone. Exactly like dumping trash everywhere, if you do the right thing alone, you're just inconveniencing yourself by spending money to dispose of trash properly while everyone else dumps it wherever.
    - stingraycharles 9y ago
      Thanks again, very informative. So does that mean that the prisoner's dilemma is unrelated to this ? The reason I mentioned that is that I figured there were two outcomes: - be rich/save money now, and get a possible competitive edge over other countries - invest in your future, long-term assuming other countries do the same
      - StavrosK 9y ago
        The tragedy of the commons can be modeled as a game, and the matrix can be similar to the one from the prisoner's dilemma, but they're not exactly the same. For example, if you properly recycle and I just dump my trash, I'm not better off than if we just both dumped our trash, which is what happens with the prisoner's dilemma. Basically, the prisoners have an incentive to deceive each other, whereas in the tragedy of the commons, you generally don't.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
yodsanklai 9y ago
I share your feeling, but I also note this contradiction: > I spent quite some time in South-East Asia > I come home, diligently recycling my trash Not saying you shouldn't recycle your trash, but your flights are much more impactful for the environment than your trash.
- bamboozled 9y ago
  Is flying really that bad compared to ocean pollution? I feel like flying is overall a pretty efficient means of transport, everything is geared towards efficiency. Plastic in the oceans, now that’s a mess.
  - the8472 9y ago
    Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world?
    - bamboozled 9y ago
      yes?
    - paulryanrogers 9y ago
      Not the OP, but if jet fuel were more sustainable or electric planes more common then certainly. (I too feel conflicted about plane travel and it's long term impact.)
    - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
      http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/driving_vs_flying_which_is_more_harmful_to_the_environment.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/dri...
      - darpa_escapee 9y ago
        > Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world? According to the above article, one would prefer that. > The trend has continued so that in 2010, flying burned just 2,691 BTU per passenger mile—an improvement of 74 percent since 1970. That was 43 percent better than driving the average car, which gets about 21.5 miles per gallon (4,218 BTU per passenger mile)
sandworm101 9y ago
It is too late to worry about going first. A great many countries have already stepped up. Recycling isnt much help. Putting a few meters of solar on your roof is far more important. Not taking a first-class flight to vacation on the other side of the planet is also good. Installing an entire roof of solar, and making sure your grandparents vote against the coal lobby, that's the best anyone can do atm.
mdekkers 9y ago
I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this That´s exactly what is going on.
coliveira 9y ago
> I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show Do you know that the garbage that is "recycled" in the USA used to be sent (until Dec 2017) directly to China? This is one of the scams of the century. Nobody knows what China does with the material they cannot use, and in fact they just decided not to take it anymore.

StavrosK 9y ago

"Tragedy of the commons", it's called.

stingraycharles 9y ago
Thanks, I never fully understood what people meant with that phrase. :)
- StavrosK 9y ago
  No problem, it's when something can be improved when everyone does the right thing together, but nobody has any incentive to do the right thing alone. Exactly like dumping trash everywhere, if you do the right thing alone, you're just inconveniencing yourself by spending money to dispose of trash properly while everyone else dumps it wherever.
  - stingraycharles 9y ago
    Thanks again, very informative. So does that mean that the prisoner's dilemma is unrelated to this ? The reason I mentioned that is that I figured there were two outcomes: - be rich/save money now, and get a possible competitive edge over other countries - invest in your future, long-term assuming other countries do the same
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      The tragedy of the commons can be modeled as a game, and the matrix can be similar to the one from the prisoner's dilemma, but they're not exactly the same. For example, if you properly recycle and I just dump my trash, I'm not better off than if we just both dumped our trash, which is what happens with the prisoner's dilemma. Basically, the prisoners have an incentive to deceive each other, whereas in the tragedy of the commons, you generally don't.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

yodsanklai 9y ago

I share your feeling, but I also note this contradiction: > I spent quite some time in South-East Asia > I come home, diligently recycling my trash Not saying you shouldn't recycle your trash, but your flights are much more impactful for the environment than your trash.

bamboozled 9y ago
Is flying really that bad compared to ocean pollution? I feel like flying is overall a pretty efficient means of transport, everything is geared towards efficiency. Plastic in the oceans, now that’s a mess.
- the8472 9y ago
  Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world?
  - bamboozled 9y ago
    yes?
  - paulryanrogers 9y ago
    Not the OP, but if jet fuel were more sustainable or electric planes more common then certainly. (I too feel conflicted about plane travel and it's long term impact.)
  - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
    http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/driving_vs_flying_which_is_more_harmful_to_the_environment.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/dri...
    - darpa_escapee 9y ago
      > Consider a world where every human traveled by plane like you do and where also every human used recycling as you do. Would you prefer living in that world? According to the above article, one would prefer that. > The trend has continued so that in 2010, flying burned just 2,691 BTU per passenger mile—an improvement of 74 percent since 1970. That was 43 percent better than driving the average car, which gets about 21.5 miles per gallon (4,218 BTU per passenger mile)

sandworm101 9y ago

It is too late to worry about going first. A great many countries have already stepped up. Recycling isnt much help. Putting a few meters of solar on your roof is far more important. Not taking a first-class flight to vacation on the other side of the planet is also good. Installing an entire roof of solar, and making sure your grandparents vote against the coal lobby, that's the best anyone can do atm.

mdekkers 9y ago

I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show, and not addressing any of the core issues that are needed to fix this That´s exactly what is going on.

coliveira 9y ago

> I can't help but wonder whether this is all just a show Do you know that the garbage that is "recycled" in the USA used to be sent (until Dec 2017) directly to China? This is one of the scams of the century. Nobody knows what China does with the material they cannot use, and in fact they just decided not to take it anymore.