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> He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts

> He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. > The second factor, he thought, was an attachment to an outdated, blank slate view of human nature. He says that many people still insist on seeing the human brain as predominantly moulded by culture, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. There tends to be a hesitancy towards attributing any differences between people to any cause that is biological in origin. This hesitancy has been around for decades, and appears like it will not be alleviated anytime soon. I agree with the first paragraph here, but not the second. I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think. Cultural differences would explain the higher wages among Asian Americans and Jews, this despite the historic racism that both of those groups have experienced. Both groups are minorities, yet on average still exceed in our society more than others.

fyi1183 9y ago
To play devils advocate, the success of Asian Americans and Jews could also be explained by genetics. My own biases as well as basic knowledge of the respective cultures makes me fairly certain that it's culture in both cases rather than genetics, though.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.
  - namenotrequired 9y ago
    > there is greater genetic variation within races than between them This is true, which is why we can only say something useful about averages between populations, but not extrapolate to particular individuals. > there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success This is very false. IQ is largely genetic, and the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively well developed societies.
    - feiofh398r39rty 9y ago
      IQ also correlates with future-orientation, which is basically self-control and anti-criminal behaviour. Being more or less likely to commit a crime is a huge success predictor.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      Have any evidence that IQ is "the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively well developed societies"?
    - afpx 9y ago
      ‘Biggest predictor’ sounds like hyperbole. Though, if true, it would be useful to know. Money could then be directed to research and policy that helps increase IQ.
      - greenrd 9y ago
        > Though, if true, it would be useful to know. Money could then be directed to research and policy that helps increase IQ. If I ever get really rich, that is what I plan to do. But the Flynn Effect has started to slow down or stop in many countries, indicating that we've plucked all the low-hanging fruits and we're running out of obvious ways to do that. We'll probably fall down slightly in terms of average IQs in the population before IVF and genetic selection allows us redress the problem. Don't mention the E word (eugenics) though - germinal choice is a better euphemism.
    - noobermin 9y ago
tzahola 9y ago
How do you explain the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study then?
- crooked-v 9y ago
  Being adopted by white people doesn't make one magically immune to melanin-based discrimination from society at large, and self-confidence and encouragement from teachers can make up a large part of the mental conditioning that allows one to do well on IQ tests.
rectang 9y ago
> I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think. Cultural and structural factors swamp genetic factors. At the extreme, you have state-sanctioned systems of discrimination such as apartheid, where people who belong to certain groups are legally impeded from fulfilling their potential. Remove the legal underpinnings and it's not like things are solved all of a sudden -- pervasive, virulent discrimination by the in-group still plays a decisive role. Even as overt discrimination softens, historical factors such as accumulated wealth continue to tilt the playing field. When do structural factors cease to dominate? That's a never-ending argument. At every point during the evolution of society, there will be people who argue that the status quo is just.
dang 9y ago
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. Didn't we just discuss this? They lead to the same few black holes over and over again—as demonstrated below.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  I was discussing one of the major topics of the post. Quoted directly from the article: > He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. If you don't like discussions on this topic, then perhaps you should stop allowing such topics on this site.

fyi1183 9y ago

To play devils advocate, the success of Asian Americans and Jews could also be explained by genetics. My own biases as well as basic knowledge of the respective cultures makes me fairly certain that it's culture in both cases rather than genetics, though.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.
- namenotrequired 9y ago
  > there is greater genetic variation within races than between them This is true, which is why we can only say something useful about averages between populations, but not extrapolate to particular individuals. > there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success This is very false. IQ is largely genetic, and the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively well developed societies.
  - feiofh398r39rty 9y ago
    IQ also correlates with future-orientation, which is basically self-control and anti-criminal behaviour. Being more or less likely to commit a crime is a huge success predictor.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    Have any evidence that IQ is "the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively well developed societies"?
  - afpx 9y ago
    ‘Biggest predictor’ sounds like hyperbole. Though, if true, it would be useful to know. Money could then be directed to research and policy that helps increase IQ.
    - greenrd 9y ago
      > Though, if true, it would be useful to know. Money could then be directed to research and policy that helps increase IQ. If I ever get really rich, that is what I plan to do. But the Flynn Effect has started to slow down or stop in many countries, indicating that we've plucked all the low-hanging fruits and we're running out of obvious ways to do that. We'll probably fall down slightly in terms of average IQs in the population before IVF and genetic selection allows us redress the problem. Don't mention the E word (eugenics) though - germinal choice is a better euphemism.
  - noobermin 9y ago

tzahola 9y ago

How do you explain the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study then?

crooked-v 9y ago
Being adopted by white people doesn't make one magically immune to melanin-based discrimination from society at large, and self-confidence and encouragement from teachers can make up a large part of the mental conditioning that allows one to do well on IQ tests.

rectang 9y ago

> I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think. Cultural and structural factors swamp genetic factors. At the extreme, you have state-sanctioned systems of discrimination such as apartheid, where people who belong to certain groups are legally impeded from fulfilling their potential. Remove the legal underpinnings and it's not like things are solved all of a sudden -- pervasive, virulent discrimination by the in-group still plays a decisive role. Even as overt discrimination softens, historical factors such as accumulated wealth continue to tilt the playing field. When do structural factors cease to dominate? That's a never-ending argument. At every point during the evolution of society, there will be people who argue that the status quo is just.

dang 9y ago

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. Didn't we just discuss this? They lead to the same few black holes over and over again—as demonstrated below.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
I was discussing one of the major topics of the post. Quoted directly from the article: > He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. If you don't like discussions on this topic, then perhaps you should stop allowing such topics on this site.