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It’s very frustrating to watch America decline and not being able to do anything about it. Has democracy failed? Is it time for a rekindling of the study of com

by biohax2015 9y ago

It’s very frustrating to watch America decline and not being able to do anything about it. Has democracy failed? Is it time for a rekindling of the study of comparative politics? It seems the Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace.

thatcat 9y ago
>Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace. How so?
- biohax2015 9y ago
  Professional politicians who know what the people need better than the people themselves.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - candiodari 9y ago
    And don't forget, faking the numbers to hide hundreds of millions people forced to live in misery, prevented from leaving (almost to the point of slavery). Then have government publish numbers that give these people comparable outcomes to American medical outcomes and expect people to believe them. But let's be sane here : the situation in China is far, far worse than in the US. Just talk to a few recent immigrants, it's not like they're hard to find. A few of their stories should cure you of the notion that US health care, even for the poorest of the poor, is bad. But the numbers tell a different story. But no worries, if a country has a oppressed population, it can rapidly end the use of plastic grocery bags, and therefore progressive get enamored with it. And faking it ... well we accidentally got shown what US politicians meant by recycling, didn't we ?
theonemind 9y ago
Democracy can't fail until we actually try it. Public opinion has about the impact of statistical noise on public policy: https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-congress-literally-doesnt-care-what-you-think/5466723 https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-congress-literally-doesn... Personally, I'd characterize the US as a plutocracy.
as787987 9y ago
And the Chinese solution is?
forapurpose 9y ago
> It seems the Chinese have a viable solution Viable to whom? And who gets to decide? If the Chinese solution is so popular, why don't they hold an election? There is no legitimate government without democracy, without the people deciding who should govern them and how.
- jackcnreturns 9y ago
  lol
  - sctb 9y ago
    Would you mind posting civilly and substantively or not at all? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- thablackbull 9y ago
  So serious question, do you consider Trump as a legitimate government? As I understand it (non-American here), Trump won through the electoral college and most Americans do not support him.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > do you consider Trump as a legitimate government? Yes, absolutely, and I loathe him. Democracy isn't simply majority rule (which is mob rule, not really democracy). While I have mixed feelings about the Electoral College, it's the law made by the American citizens and their representatives; he is President. Also, the U.S. is a republic, not a direct democracy. For very good reasons, elected representatives don't need day-to-day majority approval; that would get bad results. The only exception is if the actual vote was altered in his favor, such as if someone hacked election machines or vote counts, or if voters were substantially denied their voting rights. I know of no evidence of hacking - and I'm someone who is very skeptical of election systems security. The latter there is some evidence of, but it's hard to define the line between difficulty and denial of rights, and the net impact on results of everyone of any party who had a problem voting.
make3 9y ago
blind plutocratic capitalism has failed, not democracy
sumedh 9y ago
> Has democracy failed? An outsider was elected even though he was running against establishment candidates with huge money backing them. I say democracy won.
- tensor 9y ago
  You say that as though Trump doesn't have huge money backing him, not to mention foreign governments with equally deep pockets.
  - sumedh 9y ago
    Clinton had the same advantage and her war chest was bigger than Trump's.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - coolso 9y ago
    For the election campaign, according to Bloomberg [1] and the NY Times [2], Trump had half a billion dollars less backing him ($1.2B for Clinton, $650M for Trump) [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/ https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidentia... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/politics/campaign-spending-donald-trump-hillary-clinton.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/politics/campaign-spen...
- abootstrapper 9y ago
  First, I'm not sure that's a good metric to measure the success of democracy. Second, Trump lost the popular vote.
  - sumedh 9y ago
    The EC did its job https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
refurb 9y ago
Did it occur to you that the reason why things seem so rosey in China is because the state controls the media? It's easy to show your country is doing well when you don't have free press?
grecy 9y ago
>Has democracy failed? The US is only 5% of the World's population. There are plenty of Developed countries doing much, much better than the US. You're doing it wrong, but the rest of the world is ticking along.
- zo1 9y ago
  Like Sweden, UK and Germany?
dragonwriter 9y ago
> It’s very frustrating to watch America decline and not being able to do anything about it. Has democracy failed? No, Empire failed (or, rather, is failing), as empires do. America has also pretty much failed to democracy, and part of that was trying to democracy and empire together, or maybe just neglecting issues with democracy because empire was more important. Democracy works a lot better where people are actually practicing something that produces democratic outcomes, and the US is very close to the worst of established “democracies” at doing that, and has steadfastly refused to even consider trying to do better. > Is it time for a rekindling of the study of comparative politics? “Rekindling” implies that it died out; it didn't, and remains an active field. > It seems the Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace. In what way?

thatcat 9y ago

>Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace. How so?

biohax2015 9y ago
Professional politicians who know what the people need better than the people themselves.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- candiodari 9y ago
  And don't forget, faking the numbers to hide hundreds of millions people forced to live in misery, prevented from leaving (almost to the point of slavery). Then have government publish numbers that give these people comparable outcomes to American medical outcomes and expect people to believe them. But let's be sane here : the situation in China is far, far worse than in the US. Just talk to a few recent immigrants, it's not like they're hard to find. A few of their stories should cure you of the notion that US health care, even for the poorest of the poor, is bad. But the numbers tell a different story. But no worries, if a country has a oppressed population, it can rapidly end the use of plastic grocery bags, and therefore progressive get enamored with it. And faking it ... well we accidentally got shown what US politicians meant by recycling, didn't we ?

theonemind 9y ago

Democracy can't fail until we actually try it. Public opinion has about the impact of statistical noise on public policy: https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-congress-literally-doesnt-care-what-you-think/5466723 https://www.globalresearch.ca/study-congress-literally-doesn... Personally, I'd characterize the US as a plutocracy.

as787987 9y ago

And the Chinese solution is?

forapurpose 9y ago

> It seems the Chinese have a viable solution Viable to whom? And who gets to decide? If the Chinese solution is so popular, why don't they hold an election? There is no legitimate government without democracy, without the people deciding who should govern them and how.

jackcnreturns 9y ago
lol
- sctb 9y ago
  Would you mind posting civilly and substantively or not at all? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
thablackbull 9y ago
So serious question, do you consider Trump as a legitimate government? As I understand it (non-American here), Trump won through the electoral college and most Americans do not support him.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > do you consider Trump as a legitimate government? Yes, absolutely, and I loathe him. Democracy isn't simply majority rule (which is mob rule, not really democracy). While I have mixed feelings about the Electoral College, it's the law made by the American citizens and their representatives; he is President. Also, the U.S. is a republic, not a direct democracy. For very good reasons, elected representatives don't need day-to-day majority approval; that would get bad results. The only exception is if the actual vote was altered in his favor, such as if someone hacked election machines or vote counts, or if voters were substantially denied their voting rights. I know of no evidence of hacking - and I'm someone who is very skeptical of election systems security. The latter there is some evidence of, but it's hard to define the line between difficulty and denial of rights, and the net impact on results of everyone of any party who had a problem voting.

make3 9y ago

blind plutocratic capitalism has failed, not democracy

sumedh 9y ago

> Has democracy failed? An outsider was elected even though he was running against establishment candidates with huge money backing them. I say democracy won.

tensor 9y ago
You say that as though Trump doesn't have huge money backing him, not to mention foreign governments with equally deep pockets.
- sumedh 9y ago
  Clinton had the same advantage and her war chest was bigger than Trump's.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- coolso 9y ago
  For the election campaign, according to Bloomberg [1] and the NY Times [2], Trump had half a billion dollars less backing him ($1.2B for Clinton, $650M for Trump) [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/ https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidentia... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/politics/campaign-spending-donald-trump-hillary-clinton.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/politics/campaign-spen...
abootstrapper 9y ago
First, I'm not sure that's a good metric to measure the success of democracy. Second, Trump lost the popular vote.
- sumedh 9y ago
  The EC did its job https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

refurb 9y ago

Did it occur to you that the reason why things seem so rosey in China is because the state controls the media? It's easy to show your country is doing well when you don't have free press?

grecy 9y ago

>Has democracy failed? The US is only 5% of the World's population. There are plenty of Developed countries doing much, much better than the US. You're doing it wrong, but the rest of the world is ticking along.

zo1 9y ago
Like Sweden, UK and Germany?

dragonwriter 9y ago

> It’s very frustrating to watch America decline and not being able to do anything about it. Has democracy failed? No, Empire failed (or, rather, is failing), as empires do. America has also pretty much failed to democracy, and part of that was trying to democracy and empire together, or maybe just neglecting issues with democracy because empire was more important. Democracy works a lot better where people are actually practicing something that produces democratic outcomes, and the US is very close to the worst of established “democracies” at doing that, and has steadfastly refused to even consider trying to do better. > Is it time for a rekindling of the study of comparative politics? “Rekindling” implies that it died out; it didn't, and remains an active field. > It seems the Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace. In what way?