4 ms·

> If someone cannot handle themselves, maybe they shouldn't be given a subsidized unit in a fancy expensive city You need to solve the problem with your plan w

by theoh 9y ago

> If someone cannot handle themselves, maybe they shouldn't be given a subsidized unit in a fancy expensive city You need to solve the problem with your plan where the person who gets labelled "cannot handle themselves" is diverted into an isolated setting with much less stimulation/opportunity. You did say you weren't proposing to "ship" "addicts" to Alaska/Wyoming but there's a much higher level of responsibility than that -- you mustn't write them off / throw them on the scrap heap / set them up for an isolated dependent life by your own standards. It could be you one day.

35bge57dtjku 9y ago
> you mustn't write them off... It could be you one day. It's a little discomforting how few people seem to care about that.
tristor 9y ago
> “It could be you one day.” Why? Barring someone forcibly injecting me with opiates repeatedly or the same with crack, it is beyond unlikely I will ever become addicted to either substance. I don’t think addicts are “bad people”, but once they’ve hit a certain point their physical desire for drugs overwhelms their ability to be present in polite society. People should be treated with respect and humanity, but they also should not be given a free pass to do anything without consequence. If you’re shitting in the elevator or passing out with a needle in your arm in the restroom in the building it presents a clear problem with the plan of mixing luxury housing with subsidized housing. I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation. I might become poor, I might need to rely on subsidized housing, but I will never be “someone who can not handle themselves” as the GP referenced. I get that you’re trying to evoke empathy, but there’s a sea of difference in behavior and capability of accepting social norms between your average mentally ill substance abuser and your average poorer person who can’t afford housing. These situations are not the same and there does need to be a filter to ensure that the working poor do get affordable housing without reducing them to having to live alongside “people who can’t handle themselves”. It’s not a nice thing to realize, but it’s the hard truth. We, if anything, should start providing state run mental facilities for long-term patients again. There are a lot of people who through circumstance or birth simply are not capable of coexisting with polite society.
- slg 9y ago
  You are making a lot of assumptions about people in that situation. There are plenty of addicts who developed an addiction to opioids without ever taking an illegal substance. Maybe they are prescribed a pain killer after getting into a car accident and that eventually leads to oxycontin which leads to a heroine. Or maybe they experience some traumatic incident that leaves them with PTSD which interferes with their daily life and leads to drug use. No one can guarantee that neither of those situations will ever happen to them.
- manicdee 9y ago
  > I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation. How do you intend to accomplish that? Remember we live in a world where people have accidents with cars, guns, and preparation of prescription medicines. You do not control everyone else, yet everyone else has the potential to alter your lifestyle in a few moments of recklessness or distraction. Force majeur exists in contract law for a reason.
  - tristor 9y ago
    > How do you intend to accomplish that? Accomplishing this is simple, but not necessarily easy. You make a choice. As I mentioned, literally barring someone physically overpowering me and forcibly injecting me with addictive drugs, I will never be a drug addict because I simply refuse to take addictive drugs. Yes, that includes painkillers that may be prescribed. I took none of the hydrocodone tablets I was prescribed after my wisdom teeth extraction. I'm currently using non-pharmaceutical approaches to managing chronic back pain from an injury rather than relying on opiate painkillers which doctors are happy to prescribe. I am not blaming people for their choices, but I am recognizing that externalities that feed into our choices don't excuse the outcomes.
racer-v 9y ago
diverted into an isolated setting with much less stimulation/opportunity. Opportunity is relative. By giving it to one person, you're taking it away from another.
pas 9y ago
Were I an addict, I would very much wish someone would treat my addiction instead of enabling it by financially supporting me. Currently substance abuse is either actively criminalized with enormous costs to humanity (probably millions dead due to the various criminal organizations participating in the trade of prohibited substances) or at best relegated to intervention reality shows. Furthermore, treatment of most mental illnesses are very superficial nowadays, we have a few volunteer/charitable organizations acting as support systems, but mainly it's pills and some expensive counseling and you're good to go, right back into your old environment, old social circles, old habits, old context. I'm not saying it should be state mandated, but it could be a lot more state supported.

by theoh 9y ago

35bge57dtjku 9y ago

> you mustn't write them off... It could be you one day. It's a little discomforting how few people seem to care about that.

tristor 9y ago

> “It could be you one day.” Why? Barring someone forcibly injecting me with opiates repeatedly or the same with crack, it is beyond unlikely I will ever become addicted to either substance. I don’t think addicts are “bad people”, but once they’ve hit a certain point their physical desire for drugs overwhelms their ability to be present in polite society. People should be treated with respect and humanity, but they also should not be given a free pass to do anything without consequence. If you’re shitting in the elevator or passing out with a needle in your arm in the restroom in the building it presents a clear problem with the plan of mixing luxury housing with subsidized housing. I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation. I might become poor, I might need to rely on subsidized housing, but I will never be “someone who can not handle themselves” as the GP referenced. I get that you’re trying to evoke empathy, but there’s a sea of difference in behavior and capability of accepting social norms between your average mentally ill substance abuser and your average poorer person who can’t afford housing. These situations are not the same and there does need to be a filter to ensure that the working poor do get affordable housing without reducing them to having to live alongside “people who can’t handle themselves”. It’s not a nice thing to realize, but it’s the hard truth. We, if anything, should start providing state run mental facilities for long-term patients again. There are a lot of people who through circumstance or birth simply are not capable of coexisting with polite society.

slg 9y ago
You are making a lot of assumptions about people in that situation. There are plenty of addicts who developed an addiction to opioids without ever taking an illegal substance. Maybe they are prescribed a pain killer after getting into a car accident and that eventually leads to oxycontin which leads to a heroine. Or maybe they experience some traumatic incident that leaves them with PTSD which interferes with their daily life and leads to drug use. No one can guarantee that neither of those situations will ever happen to them.
manicdee 9y ago
> I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation. How do you intend to accomplish that? Remember we live in a world where people have accidents with cars, guns, and preparation of prescription medicines. You do not control everyone else, yet everyone else has the potential to alter your lifestyle in a few moments of recklessness or distraction. Force majeur exists in contract law for a reason.
- tristor 9y ago
  > How do you intend to accomplish that? Accomplishing this is simple, but not necessarily easy. You make a choice. As I mentioned, literally barring someone physically overpowering me and forcibly injecting me with addictive drugs, I will never be a drug addict because I simply refuse to take addictive drugs. Yes, that includes painkillers that may be prescribed. I took none of the hydrocodone tablets I was prescribed after my wisdom teeth extraction. I'm currently using non-pharmaceutical approaches to managing chronic back pain from an injury rather than relying on opiate painkillers which doctors are happy to prescribe. I am not blaming people for their choices, but I am recognizing that externalities that feed into our choices don't excuse the outcomes.

racer-v 9y ago

diverted into an isolated setting with much less stimulation/opportunity. Opportunity is relative. By giving it to one person, you're taking it away from another.

pas 9y ago

Were I an addict, I would very much wish someone would treat my addiction instead of enabling it by financially supporting me. Currently substance abuse is either actively criminalized with enormous costs to humanity (probably millions dead due to the various criminal organizations participating in the trade of prohibited substances) or at best relegated to intervention reality shows. Furthermore, treatment of most mental illnesses are very superficial nowadays, we have a few volunteer/charitable organizations acting as support systems, but mainly it's pills and some expensive counseling and you're good to go, right back into your old environment, old social circles, old habits, old context. I'm not saying it should be state mandated, but it could be a lot more state supported.