4 ms·

I stopped reading at "wage-slave". Let's not use language that implies that working for a wage is slavery. Slavery is always forced on you, you have no choice b

I stopped reading at "wage-slave". Let's not use language that implies that working for a wage is slavery. Slavery is always forced on you, you have no choice but to work, not because you need to eat, but because the man with the whip says so. It's offensive to compare the situation of a slave and someone who earns a salary. Slavery is force, not from nature, but from another human being, if you can't see the the distinction between adapting to our environment (sure, we have to eat) and being forced by another human being to work, or die, then sorry, I won't bother reading whatever it is you want me to read.

binaryfinery 16y ago
Hierarchy of needs: air, food, shelter. If you live in the USA and want food and shelter, you cannot get it without paying the man taxes. Even if you own your own land, you must pay taxes on it. The counter argument (that one could be a homeless person), is no more useful than pointing out that a slave could choose to die: yes a hard choice, but a choice non the less. So the creation of a tax system, whereby a person is forced to pay taxes, a percentage of which goes to the rich that hold government debt, is a system where everyone is forced to work by men with guns. That's slavery. But you can believe that you're not a slave just because there are slaves, or have been slaves, who have even less choices than you do.
- arvinjoar 16y ago
  I was attacking the term "wage-slave" I have no problem with identifying taxes as forced on you. I even mentioned that force from another human being is what constitutes slavery, not from nature. Government is not nature, it's human beings, they use force on you, thereby enslaving you.
- afterburner 16y ago
  You can leave anytime though. Slaves can't.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    You can leave your job, sure. And then default on your mortgage. Or be unable to pay your rent. And not be able to buy food. (or, if you mean "leave America," then you can move somewhere else... and you _still_ have to either work for yourself, or for someone else.) There's an illusion of choice, but choosing to work between McDonalds and Burger King isn't really a choice.
    - rfrey 16y ago
      Freedom is not the same as having no responsibilities. Slavery is not the same as having responsibilities. Environmental constraints are not the same as having no choices. Consequences for one's choices are not the same as oppression.
      - steveklabnik 16y ago
        I'm not saying that you shouldn't work to eat; just that working for someone else isn't preferable to working for yourself. It's much more efficient, you get to keep all of your economic output, rather than giving it to someone else.
        nostrademons 16y ago
        You're always working for someone else; that's why they pay you. The difference between employment and entrepreneurship is whether you're working for one person or for many people.
        steveklabnik 16y ago
        While that's a cute phrase (and true), you're missing the point: it's about collecting all of the fruits of your labor, rather than just some of it.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      That's the human condition. You can sit on your ass instead of hunting or gathering, but then you'd go hungry and be shunned by your tribe. You can sit on your ass instead of working your fields, but then your crops won't grow and you'll go hungry. You can sit on your ass instead of going to work at the mill every day, and then you won't be able to afford any food and you'll go hungry. I'm grateful we can sit in meetings and type code into computers in air-conditioned offices for our supper. Of course, building a business and having supper for life would be fantastic.
- krschultz 16y ago
  If you don't make any money, you won't have to pay taxes. If you don't have any bills, you won't need to make any money. Taxes are not what creates the issue you refer to, bills are. The individual really controls those expenses. That is why any comparison to slavery is asine, out of touch, and offensive. Rolling in TAXES == SLAVERY is the icing on the cake. You control your own expenses. I've lived very cheap. Give up your car, your house, your savings, your retirement account, you restaurent budget, your going out budget. The only thing left is rent and food. I lived for a whole winter as a ski bum with a couple guys, you split up rent in a cheap cabin and shop at the grocery store and it becomes almost free. There is a reason people can ski all day and get by just by waiting tables or cleaning toilets - it is because they have found out that the thing holding most people into day to day salaried jobs are self imposed. If you give all of that up to do something you want, you are completely free. So don't say it can't be done, because I have lived through it and enjoyed every minute of it.
  - c1sc0 16y ago
    I've known plenty of people like this in the climbing community. When you drop out of society, it is amazing how little you need.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  There is a huge difference between having to work for one particular person and having to work. Warren Buffett once said that the ideal amount of money to leave your children is "Enough so that they can do anything, but not so much that they can do nothing." Just because you have to do something doesn't make you a slave. You have the freedom to decide what that something is.
mrbgty 16y ago
A lot of people who are frustrated with being a "wage-slave" believe that other humans are forcing them to work or die. The distinction they view between "slavery" and "wage-slave" is that there are a few more options in the type of work you do. This is probably why they don't just call it "slavery" and have given it a different name which is understood to be less harsh.
steveklabnik 16y ago
There's a reason it's "wage-slave" and not just "slave"; the point is that it's not the same as 'regular old fashioned slavery,' just using the imagery to make a point. Maybe 'wage-indentured-servitude' would be more to your liking, since indentured servants made a (more clear-cut) choice to enter into the life they have? This comparison goes the whole way back to Aristotle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

binaryfinery 16y ago

Hierarchy of needs: air, food, shelter. If you live in the USA and want food and shelter, you cannot get it without paying the man taxes. Even if you own your own land, you must pay taxes on it. The counter argument (that one could be a homeless person), is no more useful than pointing out that a slave could choose to die: yes a hard choice, but a choice non the less. So the creation of a tax system, whereby a person is forced to pay taxes, a percentage of which goes to the rich that hold government debt, is a system where everyone is forced to work by men with guns. That's slavery. But you can believe that you're not a slave just because there are slaves, or have been slaves, who have even less choices than you do.

arvinjoar 16y ago
I was attacking the term "wage-slave" I have no problem with identifying taxes as forced on you. I even mentioned that force from another human being is what constitutes slavery, not from nature. Government is not nature, it's human beings, they use force on you, thereby enslaving you.
afterburner 16y ago
You can leave anytime though. Slaves can't.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  You can leave your job, sure. And then default on your mortgage. Or be unable to pay your rent. And not be able to buy food. (or, if you mean "leave America," then you can move somewhere else... and you _still_ have to either work for yourself, or for someone else.) There's an illusion of choice, but choosing to work between McDonalds and Burger King isn't really a choice.
  - rfrey 16y ago
    Freedom is not the same as having no responsibilities. Slavery is not the same as having responsibilities. Environmental constraints are not the same as having no choices. Consequences for one's choices are not the same as oppression.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      I'm not saying that you shouldn't work to eat; just that working for someone else isn't preferable to working for yourself. It's much more efficient, you get to keep all of your economic output, rather than giving it to someone else.
      - nostrademons 16y ago
        You're always working for someone else; that's why they pay you. The difference between employment and entrepreneurship is whether you're working for one person or for many people.
        steveklabnik 16y ago
        While that's a cute phrase (and true), you're missing the point: it's about collecting all of the fruits of your labor, rather than just some of it.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    That's the human condition. You can sit on your ass instead of hunting or gathering, but then you'd go hungry and be shunned by your tribe. You can sit on your ass instead of working your fields, but then your crops won't grow and you'll go hungry. You can sit on your ass instead of going to work at the mill every day, and then you won't be able to afford any food and you'll go hungry. I'm grateful we can sit in meetings and type code into computers in air-conditioned offices for our supper. Of course, building a business and having supper for life would be fantastic.
krschultz 16y ago
If you don't make any money, you won't have to pay taxes. If you don't have any bills, you won't need to make any money. Taxes are not what creates the issue you refer to, bills are. The individual really controls those expenses. That is why any comparison to slavery is asine, out of touch, and offensive. Rolling in TAXES == SLAVERY is the icing on the cake. You control your own expenses. I've lived very cheap. Give up your car, your house, your savings, your retirement account, you restaurent budget, your going out budget. The only thing left is rent and food. I lived for a whole winter as a ski bum with a couple guys, you split up rent in a cheap cabin and shop at the grocery store and it becomes almost free. There is a reason people can ski all day and get by just by waiting tables or cleaning toilets - it is because they have found out that the thing holding most people into day to day salaried jobs are self imposed. If you give all of that up to do something you want, you are completely free. So don't say it can't be done, because I have lived through it and enjoyed every minute of it.
- c1sc0 16y ago
  I've known plenty of people like this in the climbing community. When you drop out of society, it is amazing how little you need.
nostrademons 16y ago
There is a huge difference between having to work for one particular person and having to work. Warren Buffett once said that the ideal amount of money to leave your children is "Enough so that they can do anything, but not so much that they can do nothing." Just because you have to do something doesn't make you a slave. You have the freedom to decide what that something is.

mrbgty 16y ago

A lot of people who are frustrated with being a "wage-slave" believe that other humans are forcing them to work or die. The distinction they view between "slavery" and "wage-slave" is that there are a few more options in the type of work you do. This is probably why they don't just call it "slavery" and have given it a different name which is understood to be less harsh.

steveklabnik 16y ago

There's a reason it's "wage-slave" and not just "slave"; the point is that it's not the same as 'regular old fashioned slavery,' just using the imagery to make a point. Maybe 'wage-indentured-servitude' would be more to your liking, since indentured servants made a (more clear-cut) choice to enter into the life they have? This comparison goes the whole way back to Aristotle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery