5 ms·

It will be trivial to "modify" the mushroom and then put it in pill form, and it will be easy to patent it when they do it. Big pharma will happily make money

It will be trivial to "modify" the mushroom and then put it in pill form, and it will be easy to patent it when they do it. Big pharma will happily make money selling us what we could be growing in our backyards, and there is nothing wrong with that. Many people with depression, also would like to avoid the trip (especially people who have to work), and if Big Pharma spends millions creating a non psychoactive effective treatment regimen derived from mushrooms, that would be fantastic. And that won't be something we could ever hope to grow in our backyards without the help of the pharmaceutical industry.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
What if the trip was necessary for effective treatment?
- macawfish 9y ago
  To some degree, it absolutely is. At the very least, your reality needs to shift. That's the whole idea of healing depression... there are things in your reality that need shifting. I'm also sure that psilocybin isn't the only molecule involved. And I'm also sure that if someone isn't ready to take active ownership of their mental health into taking psilocybin could be just as moot as any other substance. Healing is a deeply embedded, embodied process. If you're experiencing depression, there's probably more than one switch that needs to get flipped on the switchboard, and a lot of dials that need to get retuned, along with habits, beliefs and perspectives that need questioning. Depression is bred out of dehumanizing norms in belief and habit. You can't just continue to go about practicing the very same things that feed your depression, take a magic pill and suddenly feel well adapted. There's going to have to be profound realization. That's exactly what a "trip" is. If you don't want to get jarred by your own realizations, you can microdose. You won't "trip" in a heavy sense, but you very well might uncover some painful things you've been neglecting for a very long time. Hopefully then you will do what you've been needing to do for a long time: grieve.
  - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
    You might be right. I think that the "trip" might be necessary, is a solid theory. But there were many people who thought the same things as you (that psycho activity was necessary) about the positive effects of marijuana. And it turned out that CBD (the non trip version of marijuana) had the same pain relief benefits for a lot of people without the high.
  - mabbo 9y ago
    > To some degree, it absolutely is. At the very least, your reality needs to shift. That's the whole idea of healing depression Hold on now, you're deciding what the mechanism of action is without merit. Consider some of the studies being done for depression with Ketamine. In those studies, they're finding that the psychoactive component isn't the one causing the improvement- just a byproduct of it created during metabolism[0]. Patients can get the same effects by just consuming that metabolite instead without any high or trip. What this study is finding is that there are specific mental changes after taking psilocybin. It isn't saying anything yet about the mechanism. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong, just that it's without any proof beyond your beliefs. [0]https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/ketamine-lifts-depression-via-a-byproduct-of-its-metabolism.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/ketamine-lif...
    - tpm 9y ago
      For psilocybin it looks like the more powerful experience means more pronounced and longer lasting therapeutic effect: "Reductions in depressive symptoms at 5 weeks were predicted by the quality of the acute psychedelic experience." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29119217 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29119217 And there are more and more studies about the mechanism of psychedelics such ad psilocybin and LSD coming out, essentially telling the same story.
      - mabbo 9y ago
        That's correlation, not causation. What if the more intense experience comes from the same root cause as the more pronounced effect (ie: maybe some people are just wired differently and it has multiple effects?) More study is needed before we go off saying that the psychedelic experience is the cause of the improvement, in my view.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

What if the trip was necessary for effective treatment?

macawfish 9y ago
To some degree, it absolutely is. At the very least, your reality needs to shift. That's the whole idea of healing depression... there are things in your reality that need shifting. I'm also sure that psilocybin isn't the only molecule involved. And I'm also sure that if someone isn't ready to take active ownership of their mental health into taking psilocybin could be just as moot as any other substance. Healing is a deeply embedded, embodied process. If you're experiencing depression, there's probably more than one switch that needs to get flipped on the switchboard, and a lot of dials that need to get retuned, along with habits, beliefs and perspectives that need questioning. Depression is bred out of dehumanizing norms in belief and habit. You can't just continue to go about practicing the very same things that feed your depression, take a magic pill and suddenly feel well adapted. There's going to have to be profound realization. That's exactly what a "trip" is. If you don't want to get jarred by your own realizations, you can microdose. You won't "trip" in a heavy sense, but you very well might uncover some painful things you've been neglecting for a very long time. Hopefully then you will do what you've been needing to do for a long time: grieve.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
  You might be right. I think that the "trip" might be necessary, is a solid theory. But there were many people who thought the same things as you (that psycho activity was necessary) about the positive effects of marijuana. And it turned out that CBD (the non trip version of marijuana) had the same pain relief benefits for a lot of people without the high.
- mabbo 9y ago
  > To some degree, it absolutely is. At the very least, your reality needs to shift. That's the whole idea of healing depression Hold on now, you're deciding what the mechanism of action is without merit. Consider some of the studies being done for depression with Ketamine. In those studies, they're finding that the psychoactive component isn't the one causing the improvement- just a byproduct of it created during metabolism[0]. Patients can get the same effects by just consuming that metabolite instead without any high or trip. What this study is finding is that there are specific mental changes after taking psilocybin. It isn't saying anything yet about the mechanism. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong, just that it's without any proof beyond your beliefs. [0]https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/ketamine-lifts-depression-via-a-byproduct-of-its-metabolism.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2016/ketamine-lif...
  - tpm 9y ago
    For psilocybin it looks like the more powerful experience means more pronounced and longer lasting therapeutic effect: "Reductions in depressive symptoms at 5 weeks were predicted by the quality of the acute psychedelic experience." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29119217 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29119217 And there are more and more studies about the mechanism of psychedelics such ad psilocybin and LSD coming out, essentially telling the same story.
    - mabbo 9y ago
      That's correlation, not causation. What if the more intense experience comes from the same root cause as the more pronounced effect (ie: maybe some people are just wired differently and it has multiple effects?) More study is needed before we go off saying that the psychedelic experience is the cause of the improvement, in my view.