4 ms·

It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be

It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure this sounds to you like I'm reaching, but I can think of many, many similar circumstances where I've done something completely innocent in context that would get me skewered if taken as a sound bite or a picture. That's why I'm slow to take the man's career.

vorotato 9y ago
They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around and you shouldn't do it. Just because someone doesn't press charges because they're having fun with it doesn't mean you're not walking on insanely thin ice.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. Different cultures are different. Sex isn't inherently evil or even taboo. Military guys hit each other in the balls on a regular basis. The only absolute here is that you shouldn't continue some behavior you know is unwelcome. It's entirely possible Franken was abiding by this rule.
  - vorotato 9y ago
    It's law in the US, and he is a United States Senator. Just because people in the military don't report sexual assault for being whacked in the balls doesn't mean one couldn't, or shouldn't. Sex isn't evil, but sex is often used in the workplace to coerce, intimidate and violate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex, there is absolutely something wrong with violating consent. People have the right to their bodily autonomy, some people even have strict religious codes that they've been working all their life to follow. Some people commit suicide after a sexual assault. If you want to hit your own balls that's fine, if someone gives you express permission to hit their balls that's also fine (though you should probably get it in writing), but if you go up and down the streets hitting people in the balls you're going to get arrested.
    - supreme_sublime 9y ago
      Do you have any friends? Are you a robot? This kind of thinking is completely outside of any kind of consideration for camaraderie or connectedness with a team or group of people. In terms of the Franken stuff specifically. The woman was known to make jokes similar to this. How can it be harassing if she wasn't even awake for it? Not to mention harassment is sustained, not a single instance. He didn't touch her, and she wasn't aware of what he was doing. The photograph is in no way showing her in a negative light. As far as I'm concerned, he did nothing wrong. It just seems like good natured humor that might be skirting along being inappropriate, but only for people with a stick up their ass.
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      This response is entirely irrelevant to the argument. No one is defending violating consent. I'll just bow out now.
- tatersolid 9y ago
  > IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment No, it doesn’t. Asking a colleague someone on a date may be an “unwanted advance” but that is not sexual harassment. Even asking someone on a date and having them decline multiple times is not sexual harassment, so long as the asker is polite and respectful about it. Sexual harassment is a fairly high legal bar in the USA. You can sue for just about anything, but if you want to win you need evidence of truly bad behavior. Which is as it should be; convicting based solely on the accuser’s testimony is not fair no matter the crime. Source: recent all-hands corporate training session held by an employment attorney
  - vorotato 9y ago
    edit: To clear the air, I completely agree regarding the statement. "convicting based solely on the accuser’s testimony is not fair no matter the crime." it's not always so clear cut though, for example if they decide to quit as a result of the advances, then it could count as sexual harassment due to the adverse employment decision. Admittedly you're completely right about winning. You're not going to win a lawsuit because Sally politely asked you out once, but maybe if she "politely" badgered you every single time she spoke to the point where you were not willing to work with that person any more, and that caused you to get demoted. Usually someone has to be a dirtbag, but some people think they're not dirtbags when they totally are dirtbags. That's when HR disasters happen and the accused weave some tale about how they were totally innocent when in reality they were shitty people creating a hostile workplace otherwise the jury would never have voted the way they did. bob: "Oh but you said asking out was okay" HR: "yeah but uh your version of asking out was putting your balls on their desk and saying 'hey babe you know you want this'" bob:"Yeah but there was nothing rude about that, babe is a compliment" bob@thePub: "I can't believe they fired me you ask a girl out and all the sudden it's sexual harassment" you know who I'm talking about.

vorotato 9y ago

They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around and you shouldn't do it. Just because someone doesn't press charges because they're having fun with it doesn't mean you're not walking on insanely thin ice.

brucephillips 9y ago
> If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. Different cultures are different. Sex isn't inherently evil or even taboo. Military guys hit each other in the balls on a regular basis. The only absolute here is that you shouldn't continue some behavior you know is unwelcome. It's entirely possible Franken was abiding by this rule.
- vorotato 9y ago
  It's law in the US, and he is a United States Senator. Just because people in the military don't report sexual assault for being whacked in the balls doesn't mean one couldn't, or shouldn't. Sex isn't evil, but sex is often used in the workplace to coerce, intimidate and violate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex, there is absolutely something wrong with violating consent. People have the right to their bodily autonomy, some people even have strict religious codes that they've been working all their life to follow. Some people commit suicide after a sexual assault. If you want to hit your own balls that's fine, if someone gives you express permission to hit their balls that's also fine (though you should probably get it in writing), but if you go up and down the streets hitting people in the balls you're going to get arrested.
  - supreme_sublime 9y ago
    Do you have any friends? Are you a robot? This kind of thinking is completely outside of any kind of consideration for camaraderie or connectedness with a team or group of people. In terms of the Franken stuff specifically. The woman was known to make jokes similar to this. How can it be harassing if she wasn't even awake for it? Not to mention harassment is sustained, not a single instance. He didn't touch her, and she wasn't aware of what he was doing. The photograph is in no way showing her in a negative light. As far as I'm concerned, he did nothing wrong. It just seems like good natured humor that might be skirting along being inappropriate, but only for people with a stick up their ass.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    This response is entirely irrelevant to the argument. No one is defending violating consent. I'll just bow out now.
tatersolid 9y ago
> IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment No, it doesn’t. Asking a colleague someone on a date may be an “unwanted advance” but that is not sexual harassment. Even asking someone on a date and having them decline multiple times is not sexual harassment, so long as the asker is polite and respectful about it. Sexual harassment is a fairly high legal bar in the USA. You can sue for just about anything, but if you want to win you need evidence of truly bad behavior. Which is as it should be; convicting based solely on the accuser’s testimony is not fair no matter the crime. Source: recent all-hands corporate training session held by an employment attorney
- vorotato 9y ago
  edit: To clear the air, I completely agree regarding the statement. "convicting based solely on the accuser’s testimony is not fair no matter the crime." it's not always so clear cut though, for example if they decide to quit as a result of the advances, then it could count as sexual harassment due to the adverse employment decision. Admittedly you're completely right about winning. You're not going to win a lawsuit because Sally politely asked you out once, but maybe if she "politely" badgered you every single time she spoke to the point where you were not willing to work with that person any more, and that caused you to get demoted. Usually someone has to be a dirtbag, but some people think they're not dirtbags when they totally are dirtbags. That's when HR disasters happen and the accused weave some tale about how they were totally innocent when in reality they were shitty people creating a hostile workplace otherwise the jury would never have voted the way they did. bob: "Oh but you said asking out was okay" HR: "yeah but uh your version of asking out was putting your balls on their desk and saying 'hey babe you know you want this'" bob:"Yeah but there was nothing rude about that, babe is a compliment" bob@thePub: "I can't believe they fired me you ask a girl out and all the sudden it's sexual harassment" you know who I'm talking about.