5 ms·

> Al Franken was literally photographed with his hands on a woman's chest. No, he wasn't.

mjevans 9y ago
Most news outlets did a really poor job being clear about what the picture was of. (Yes it was staged to look like he might have been touching; and at a glance in an airport on a muted TV many probably thought that's what he had done.) Context and detail matter. Our TV culture is toxic in that it vastly over-simplifies and rapid fires everything.
vorotato 9y ago
Yes, I guess you're correct looking very closely it does appear he is merely making groping motions very close to her breasts. It changes it from sexual assault to sexual harassment which is still completely unacceptable. It still is not a behavior that any of our elected officials should be engaging in.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure this sounds to you like I'm reaching, but I can think of many, many similar circumstances where I've done something completely innocent in context that would get me skewered if taken as a sound bite or a picture. That's why I'm slow to take the man's career.
  - vorotato 9y ago
    They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around and you shouldn't do it. Just because someone doesn't press charges because they're having fun with it doesn't mean you're not walking on insanely thin ice.
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      > If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. Different cultures are different. Sex isn't inherently evil or even taboo. Military guys hit each other in the balls on a regular basis. The only absolute here is that you shouldn't continue some behavior you know is unwelcome. It's entirely possible Franken was abiding by this rule.
      - vorotato 9y ago
        It's law in the US, and he is a United States Senator. Just because people in the military don't report sexual assault for being whacked in the balls doesn't mean one couldn't, or shouldn't. Sex isn't evil, but sex is often used in the workplace to coerce, intimidate and violate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex, there is absolutely something wrong with violating consent. People have the right to their bodily autonomy, some people even have strict religious codes that they've been working all their life to follow. Some people commit suicide after a sexual assault. If you want to hit your own balls that's fine, if someone gives you express permission to hit their balls that's also fine (though you should probably get it in writing), but if you go up and down the streets hitting people in the balls you're going to get arrested.
        supreme_sublime 9y ago
        Do you have any friends? Are you a robot? This kind of thinking is completely outside of any kind of consideration for camaraderie or connectedness with a team or group of people. In terms of the Franken stuff specifically. The woman was known to make jokes similar to this. How can it be harassing if she wasn't even awake for it? Not to mention harassment is sustained, not a single instance. He didn't touch her, and she wasn't aware of what he was doing. The photograph is in no way showing her in a negative light. As far as I'm concerned, he did nothing wrong. It just seems like good natured humor that might be skirting along being inappropriate, but only for people with a stick up their ass.
        brucephillips 9y ago

Most news outlets did a really poor job being clear about what the picture was of. (Yes it was staged to look like he might have been touching; and at a glance in an airport on a muted TV many probably thought that's what he had done.) Context and detail matter. Our TV culture is toxic in that it vastly over-simplifies and rapid fires everything.

vorotato 9y ago

Yes, I guess you're correct looking very closely it does appear he is merely making groping motions very close to her breasts. It changes it from sexual assault to sexual harassment which is still completely unacceptable. It still is not a behavior that any of our elected officials should be engaging in.

brucephillips 9y ago
It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure this sounds to you like I'm reaching, but I can think of many, many similar circumstances where I've done something completely innocent in context that would get me skewered if taken as a sound bite or a picture. That's why I'm slow to take the man's career.
- vorotato 9y ago
  They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around and you shouldn't do it. Just because someone doesn't press charges because they're having fun with it doesn't mean you're not walking on insanely thin ice.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    > If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. Different cultures are different. Sex isn't inherently evil or even taboo. Military guys hit each other in the balls on a regular basis. The only absolute here is that you shouldn't continue some behavior you know is unwelcome. It's entirely possible Franken was abiding by this rule.
    - vorotato 9y ago
      It's law in the US, and he is a United States Senator. Just because people in the military don't report sexual assault for being whacked in the balls doesn't mean one couldn't, or shouldn't. Sex isn't evil, but sex is often used in the workplace to coerce, intimidate and violate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex, there is absolutely something wrong with violating consent. People have the right to their bodily autonomy, some people even have strict religious codes that they've been working all their life to follow. Some people commit suicide after a sexual assault. If you want to hit your own balls that's fine, if someone gives you express permission to hit their balls that's also fine (though you should probably get it in writing), but if you go up and down the streets hitting people in the balls you're going to get arrested.
      - supreme_sublime 9y ago
        Do you have any friends? Are you a robot? This kind of thinking is completely outside of any kind of consideration for camaraderie or connectedness with a team or group of people. In terms of the Franken stuff specifically. The woman was known to make jokes similar to this. How can it be harassing if she wasn't even awake for it? Not to mention harassment is sustained, not a single instance. He didn't touch her, and she wasn't aware of what he was doing. The photograph is in no way showing her in a negative light. As far as I'm concerned, he did nothing wrong. It just seems like good natured humor that might be skirting along being inappropriate, but only for people with a stick up their ass.
      - brucephillips 9y ago