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People not on the hard left have been saying this exact thing for years. I guess now that people like Franken are going down due to outrage, the NYT sees value

People not on the hard left have been saying this exact thing for years. I guess now that people like Franken are going down due to outrage, the NYT sees value in due process and treating women as responsible adults. I don’t mean for that statement to be flame-bait, I think it’s the unvarnished truth and I’d be happy to hear opposing views.

FussyZeus 9y ago
If you don't want it to be flame bait I'd suggest you phrase it more politely. Feminists didn't put a gun to the leadership of NYT and demand they do what they did. They reacted in the dumb ways that any corporation scared by the idea of bad PR would and do regularly, and have been appropriately chastised for it. Both sides of this get it wrong: Women are cast as hapless victims way too often, and their opposition in turn over-simplify every case, ignoring power dynamics, social pressure, and the numerous other completely legitimate reasons women have to say yes when they want to say no. This is going to be a long and painful process, but it's overdue, and necessary.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  Well put. What I would like to see is a public discussion around what constitutes a power dynamic large enough to make sexual advances unacceptable. Any two people have some degree of power differential, after all.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    That's a VERY hard question to answer. And of course there is going to be situations where a Manager legitimately is romantically interested in a subordinate. It's going to happen, it's not even that out there of a scenario. I think the most logical step is to get this shit out of the news cycle entirely. Accuser and accused should be out of the public eye for as long as we can possibly manage. The problem is so many mechanisms in both private corps and even civic orgs are shit, which is why women are going to the media instead because it's the only way they get listened to.
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      A manager relationship is the most clear cut. Much harder are the "powerful people in the industry" relationships. Is the entire industry off limits to those at the top?
      - FussyZeus 9y ago
        Again, all of this is extremely muddy by nature and will stay that way. There are innumerable variables in every single case: the intent of the accused, their credibility, their track record regarding these issues, the circumstances of the perceived attack, the credibility of the accuser, which of them is actually telling more of the truth, anything that was documented, on and on and on. Right now there is a revulsion in the public space because of the real bad cases like Weinstein, who had a long and seemingly well known track record for abusing his station to get sexual favors from women in his industry, and use of his connections to keep it quiet from people who would've made it public. That needs to fade away before there's any realistic chance of a rational discussion. Yes, some people are going to get caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but I don't see a way around it.

FussyZeus 9y ago

If you don't want it to be flame bait I'd suggest you phrase it more politely. Feminists didn't put a gun to the leadership of NYT and demand they do what they did. They reacted in the dumb ways that any corporation scared by the idea of bad PR would and do regularly, and have been appropriately chastised for it. Both sides of this get it wrong: Women are cast as hapless victims way too often, and their opposition in turn over-simplify every case, ignoring power dynamics, social pressure, and the numerous other completely legitimate reasons women have to say yes when they want to say no. This is going to be a long and painful process, but it's overdue, and necessary.

brucephillips 9y ago
Well put. What I would like to see is a public discussion around what constitutes a power dynamic large enough to make sexual advances unacceptable. Any two people have some degree of power differential, after all.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  That's a VERY hard question to answer. And of course there is going to be situations where a Manager legitimately is romantically interested in a subordinate. It's going to happen, it's not even that out there of a scenario. I think the most logical step is to get this shit out of the news cycle entirely. Accuser and accused should be out of the public eye for as long as we can possibly manage. The problem is so many mechanisms in both private corps and even civic orgs are shit, which is why women are going to the media instead because it's the only way they get listened to.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    A manager relationship is the most clear cut. Much harder are the "powerful people in the industry" relationships. Is the entire industry off limits to those at the top?
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      Again, all of this is extremely muddy by nature and will stay that way. There are innumerable variables in every single case: the intent of the accused, their credibility, their track record regarding these issues, the circumstances of the perceived attack, the credibility of the accuser, which of them is actually telling more of the truth, anything that was documented, on and on and on. Right now there is a revulsion in the public space because of the real bad cases like Weinstein, who had a long and seemingly well known track record for abusing his station to get sexual favors from women in his industry, and use of his connections to keep it quiet from people who would've made it public. That needs to fade away before there's any realistic chance of a rational discussion. Yes, some people are going to get caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but I don't see a way around it.