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A few thoughts from a CEO in this space: 1. There are very few issuing banks for crypto <> fiat debit cards. Internationally there has been 1 WaveCrest; which

A few thoughts from a CEO in this space: 1. There are very few issuing banks for crypto <> fiat debit cards. Internationally there has been 1 WaveCrest; which as of a few months ago decided to discontinue support. 2. Even when a bank will sponsor a crypto <> fiat debit card into one of the payment networks, the company offering the card will face constant pressure from their own bankers. 3. This happening is from my perspective just a quick look behind the curtain of the Digital Currency infrastructure problem as it exists today. There is no good way in, or out of digital currency at the moment, and the ones that exist are tenuous at best. The base truth is that Traditional banks are not capable of supporting new methods of value transfer. That means that the companies that build and provide infrastructure for those methods are currently at the mercy of a partner who basically wont help them. I always try and make the charitable assumption about the motives of others and my take on the banking <> digital currency relations is basically this: Banks have a business model that has worked well for generations; they do a little fractional reserve, they extract as many fees as they can invent, and they centralize the control of wealth. The promise of digital currency is that everyone will have the capability to do that for themselves. So, its not surprising to me that it is hard for them to work with those of us who are building bridges and on/off ramps between the two systems. With all of that being said, I am sorry for all of the debit card users who are currently without an off ramp, and I can assure you that the folks at BitPay, Xapo, and all of the other companies that lost access to the EU are working as hard as possible to bring those programs back online.

staplers 9y ago
The irony of making it difficult to exit crypto means traditional banking will long-term be on the losing end as people who buy into crypto (even as novelty) won't want to "cash out" due to difficulty while realizing how convoluted the fiat process is when viewed from the outside. They'll find ways to stay in crypto and get things done.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > traditional banking will long-term be on the losing end as people who buy into crypto (even as novelty) won't want to "cash out" due to difficulty There is context for this. China and Venezuela's capital controls are why everyone wants to hold renminbi and bolivars.
  - nwah1 9y ago
    They want to hold renminbi and bolivars because it is necessary in order to pay taxes.
    - mhluongo 9y ago
      Neither of those is true, lol
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      My comment was facetious. Both countries’ currencies are plagued with flight problems.
- Nursie 9y ago
  Surely this is only true if the point of cryptocurrency for those people is to get things done. If it's mostly speculation, as it seems to be right now, not so much.
- vkou 9y ago
  This is false. When you find that you can't sell your tulips for dutch guilder, you don't set up a mirror economy that uses tulips for currency. Instead, you find tulip prices collapsing, and yourself broke. Why would my landlord, who is not vested in crypto, want to exchange goods and services for bitcoins that he can't cash out to pay his contractors, taxes, etc? Nobody wants to be paid in illiquid assets, what on earth would possess him to get into that horror show.
  - toomim 9y ago
    Maybe that's what you do, but that's not what I do, and that's certainly not the hacker way. So instead of saying "this is false", you should be saying "well, this is just, like, my opinion, man."
    - geezerjay 9y ago
      Your comment adds nothing to the discussion and only serves as an attempt to disregard every point without any reason or fact, and simply because you prefer not to face the facts.
      - toomim 9y ago
        It adds a datapoint (my own behavior) that contradicts the parent's claim of what people will do. I think what you really mean is "your statement does not contribute to my argument," not "your statement does not contribute to the discussion." There are arguments besides your own, and I am living proof that they live in people.
  - down 9y ago
    in every thread there is a tulips idiot, tulips didn't happened, is just propaganda of those times, was no crash, meltdown, whatever, there are landlords that will take bitcoin, especially younger ones, hell, I could even find escorts that will take bitcoin and give me a discount, bitcoin is fungible, why would not take bitcoin, with all the quantitative erasing.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
Nursie 9y ago
We're talking about bitcoin here - the talk of fees extracted and of centralisation as a bad thing look somewhat odd given that context.
taxtherich 9y ago
Realities: 1) Bitcoin is a terrible vehicle for value transfer. Slow. Expensive. Impractical. Unpredictable. Unforgiving. 2) No coins have meaningful consumer uptake, and there is no meaningful demand for other integration. 3) Normal people don't want the responsibilities involved with being their own bank. 4) Normal people are fine with the existence of credit systems (and thus "fractional reserve") Note: my bank has coinbase integration. This is how any such thing will work. there will be slow uptake as consumers decide they care about it. banks will support it if clients want it in meaningful quantity.
marcell 9y ago
> 3. This happening is from my perspective just a quick look behind the curtain of the Digital Currency infrastructure problem as it exists today. There is no good way in, or out of digital currency at the moment, and the ones that exist are tenuous at best. What country do you live in? This has not been true in US or EU for years as Coinbase and Kraken are two excellent options to get in and out. Bitcoin debit cards are a bit of novelty, not some central infrastructure.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
  Comparing Coinbase to ETrade I'd have to disagree. If you want to make small (sub-$1000) transactions, sure Coinbase and Kraken are good enough, but $10k or $100k or $1MM is a totally different story.
- hfourm 9y ago
  To add on to the other poster, Coinbase has some terrible workflows. Inconsistent card verification, ID verification is pretty much broken (intentionally or not).
- root_axis 9y ago
  I haven't used kraken, but I can say that I would not qualify Coinbase as good... it as at best "usable". Unacceptably poor customer service, significant markup when buying bitcoin, sometimes a week or more delay between purchase and fulfillment, arduous verification process for new customers, being arbitrarily (from the customer's perspective) flagged for a verification even though you already sent them a photo of your passport 3 months prior, banning customers for sending coins to certain addresses, and did I mention unacceptably terrible customer service? Sometimes just never even responding to a customer ever? I can't say it's not usable... I have bought bitcoin from there and I did receive it, but the experience has been very far from good.
jhwang5 9y ago
1) Think from their perspective. They have very little upside for integrating with cryptocurrency platforms. It adds nothing to the bottom line. If anything, it subtracts from their bottom line, due to the added compliance work required to prevent crypto money launderers. 2) Stop saying crypto is decentralized. The vast majority of cryptocurrencies are mined by a small minority, and most participants have zero say in the direction of each currency. Yes, you can have a "decentralized" architecture, but not "democratization". Crypto-space ended up with an oligarchy.
- juicyfroot 9y ago
  1. It's YOUR money and property. May as well have government prevent you from wearing gloves because there is extra work to make sure you do not use gloves in a crime. 2. It is decentralized. Anyone is free to trade, free to mine, free to fork. No papers needed Sounds like someone is a bit upset they didn't spend a few $100 or few $1000 when BTC/BCH/ETH was cheap.
- trakout 9y ago
  #2 is way off. By definition crypto is decentralized. Currencies that currently have the highest market caps (read: most popular) also tend to be open source -- anyone can contribute, and anyone can run a node and perform PoW/PoS contributions. There are exceptions (XRP), but for the most part your comment reflects a misunderstanding of "crypto-space".
  - thinkmassive 9y ago
    Measuring decentralization is a significant issue in the crypto space. Here’s an interesting article from Earn.com (formerly 21.co) https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c28e https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c... If anyone knows of similar articles or studies please share them.
  - jhwang5 9y ago
    If you read my #2, I basically acknowledge that crypto is decentralized. What I argued is that decentralized does not mean what the vast majority of people thinks it means, which is that it makes financial system more democratic. Many including myself are taking exception to that misconception.
tim333 9y ago
As someone who's been transfering quite a lot of money through various banks and into crypto I'd imaging the biggest issue is the money laundering type regulations. For transfers much over $20k normal banks want documentation where it came from and all your normal transactions can be viewed by the government for tax enforcement purposes. Once you're in crypto that's all out the window - I've been trading on Kucoin which is kind of based in HK or China but no one quite knows where, doesn't keep much in the way of records, if you were transfering crypto out for drugs or tax purposes no one would know. So I can see how Visa would be worried about being party to that kind of thing and then fined or prosecuted for it. By the way re "no good way in" I've found coinmate.io pretty good once you get the money to them but it has to come from a bank account in your own name and those can be funny about letting you transfer to them. Also it's kind of slow - once your money arrives you have to wait a day or so for a human to process it.

staplers 9y ago

The irony of making it difficult to exit crypto means traditional banking will long-term be on the losing end as people who buy into crypto (even as novelty) won't want to "cash out" due to difficulty while realizing how convoluted the fiat process is when viewed from the outside. They'll find ways to stay in crypto and get things done.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> traditional banking will long-term be on the losing end as people who buy into crypto (even as novelty) won't want to "cash out" due to difficulty There is context for this. China and Venezuela's capital controls are why everyone wants to hold renminbi and bolivars.
- nwah1 9y ago
  They want to hold renminbi and bolivars because it is necessary in order to pay taxes.
  - mhluongo 9y ago
    Neither of those is true, lol
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    My comment was facetious. Both countries’ currencies are plagued with flight problems.
Nursie 9y ago
Surely this is only true if the point of cryptocurrency for those people is to get things done. If it's mostly speculation, as it seems to be right now, not so much.
vkou 9y ago
This is false. When you find that you can't sell your tulips for dutch guilder, you don't set up a mirror economy that uses tulips for currency. Instead, you find tulip prices collapsing, and yourself broke. Why would my landlord, who is not vested in crypto, want to exchange goods and services for bitcoins that he can't cash out to pay his contractors, taxes, etc? Nobody wants to be paid in illiquid assets, what on earth would possess him to get into that horror show.
- toomim 9y ago
  Maybe that's what you do, but that's not what I do, and that's certainly not the hacker way. So instead of saying "this is false", you should be saying "well, this is just, like, my opinion, man."
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    Your comment adds nothing to the discussion and only serves as an attempt to disregard every point without any reason or fact, and simply because you prefer not to face the facts.
    - toomim 9y ago
      It adds a datapoint (my own behavior) that contradicts the parent's claim of what people will do. I think what you really mean is "your statement does not contribute to my argument," not "your statement does not contribute to the discussion." There are arguments besides your own, and I am living proof that they live in people.
- down 9y ago
  in every thread there is a tulips idiot, tulips didn't happened, is just propaganda of those times, was no crash, meltdown, whatever, there are landlords that will take bitcoin, especially younger ones, hell, I could even find escorts that will take bitcoin and give me a discount, bitcoin is fungible, why would not take bitcoin, with all the quantitative erasing.
- mythrwy 9y ago

Nursie 9y ago

We're talking about bitcoin here - the talk of fees extracted and of centralisation as a bad thing look somewhat odd given that context.

taxtherich 9y ago

Realities: 1) Bitcoin is a terrible vehicle for value transfer. Slow. Expensive. Impractical. Unpredictable. Unforgiving. 2) No coins have meaningful consumer uptake, and there is no meaningful demand for other integration. 3) Normal people don't want the responsibilities involved with being their own bank. 4) Normal people are fine with the existence of credit systems (and thus "fractional reserve") Note: my bank has coinbase integration. This is how any such thing will work. there will be slow uptake as consumers decide they care about it. banks will support it if clients want it in meaningful quantity.

marcell 9y ago

> 3. This happening is from my perspective just a quick look behind the curtain of the Digital Currency infrastructure problem as it exists today. There is no good way in, or out of digital currency at the moment, and the ones that exist are tenuous at best. What country do you live in? This has not been true in US or EU for years as Coinbase and Kraken are two excellent options to get in and out. Bitcoin debit cards are a bit of novelty, not some central infrastructure.

Domenic_S 9y ago
Comparing Coinbase to ETrade I'd have to disagree. If you want to make small (sub-$1000) transactions, sure Coinbase and Kraken are good enough, but $10k or $100k or $1MM is a totally different story.
hfourm 9y ago
To add on to the other poster, Coinbase has some terrible workflows. Inconsistent card verification, ID verification is pretty much broken (intentionally or not).
root_axis 9y ago
I haven't used kraken, but I can say that I would not qualify Coinbase as good... it as at best "usable". Unacceptably poor customer service, significant markup when buying bitcoin, sometimes a week or more delay between purchase and fulfillment, arduous verification process for new customers, being arbitrarily (from the customer's perspective) flagged for a verification even though you already sent them a photo of your passport 3 months prior, banning customers for sending coins to certain addresses, and did I mention unacceptably terrible customer service? Sometimes just never even responding to a customer ever? I can't say it's not usable... I have bought bitcoin from there and I did receive it, but the experience has been very far from good.

jhwang5 9y ago

1) Think from their perspective. They have very little upside for integrating with cryptocurrency platforms. It adds nothing to the bottom line. If anything, it subtracts from their bottom line, due to the added compliance work required to prevent crypto money launderers. 2) Stop saying crypto is decentralized. The vast majority of cryptocurrencies are mined by a small minority, and most participants have zero say in the direction of each currency. Yes, you can have a "decentralized" architecture, but not "democratization". Crypto-space ended up with an oligarchy.

juicyfroot 9y ago
1. It's YOUR money and property. May as well have government prevent you from wearing gloves because there is extra work to make sure you do not use gloves in a crime. 2. It is decentralized. Anyone is free to trade, free to mine, free to fork. No papers needed Sounds like someone is a bit upset they didn't spend a few $100 or few $1000 when BTC/BCH/ETH was cheap.
trakout 9y ago
#2 is way off. By definition crypto is decentralized. Currencies that currently have the highest market caps (read: most popular) also tend to be open source -- anyone can contribute, and anyone can run a node and perform PoW/PoS contributions. There are exceptions (XRP), but for the most part your comment reflects a misunderstanding of "crypto-space".
- thinkmassive 9y ago
  Measuring decentralization is a significant issue in the crypto space. Here’s an interesting article from Earn.com (formerly 21.co) https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c28e https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c... If anyone knows of similar articles or studies please share them.
- jhwang5 9y ago
  If you read my #2, I basically acknowledge that crypto is decentralized. What I argued is that decentralized does not mean what the vast majority of people thinks it means, which is that it makes financial system more democratic. Many including myself are taking exception to that misconception.

tim333 9y ago

As someone who's been transfering quite a lot of money through various banks and into crypto I'd imaging the biggest issue is the money laundering type regulations. For transfers much over $20k normal banks want documentation where it came from and all your normal transactions can be viewed by the government for tax enforcement purposes. Once you're in crypto that's all out the window - I've been trading on Kucoin which is kind of based in HK or China but no one quite knows where, doesn't keep much in the way of records, if you were transfering crypto out for drugs or tax purposes no one would know. So I can see how Visa would be worried about being party to that kind of thing and then fined or prosecuted for it. By the way re "no good way in" I've found coinmate.io pretty good once you get the money to them but it has to come from a bank account in your own name and those can be funny about letting you transfer to them. Also it's kind of slow - once your money arrives you have to wait a day or so for a human to process it.