5 ms·

Symbos is pretty cool but it's a crying shame that it's closed source. A lot of people in the z80 community don't understand the value of open source, but will

Symbos is pretty cool but it's a crying shame that it's closed source. A lot of people in the z80 community don't understand the value of open source, but will give away binaries for free.

aidenn0 9y ago
Indeed, and it makes it harder for me to port to a Kaypro II
- aidenn0 9y ago
  [edit] Actually none of the supported platforms have less than 128KB of RAM, so it might not run on that.
MaxBarraclough 9y ago
MenuetOS also suffers this problem. The 64 bit version is closed-source/non-Free, but available free of charge. Great way to limit wider interest in the project, and they're not even making bank. They get to spite the people who'd want to fork the project, I guess. The D programming language also had this problem for a long time (closed-source/non-Free compiler backend), but thankfully no longer.
- CyberShadow 9y ago
  Tiny correction: the reference D compiler's source code was available, but its backend was not Free Software (it was non-redistributable). This was not by choice of its authors, but due to a historical IP/licensing snag. Today it is fully open-source.
  - MaxBarraclough 9y ago
    Right. But I did specifically say 'backend'.
- frou_dh 9y ago
  Just because outsiders consider something a "problem" does not make it so. I find it odd to talk about someone else's baby like that.
  - MaxBarraclough 9y ago
    Certainly in the case of D, adoption and real-world usage was/is a goal. Perhaps less so for MenuetOS and SymbOS, but even 'pure' hobby projects tend to enjoy public interest. They don't just live on someone's hard-drive in a basement somewhere. That D's licensing issues are now gone, certainly benefits D. Even if adoption isn't the goal, making it FOSS might still make good sense. Suppose the goals are novelty and technical achievement. More interest means more support in developing their novelty OS, no?
tluyben2 9y ago
I have asked many times for the source from author, Podatron, but he doesn't seem to like the idea. I use Symbos on the MSX-2 and with a disassembler under an emulator you get quite far without the sourecode, especially if you start by studying the source code to the apps on the system. Luckily the system is very small (as is the memory on these machines), so with a few weekends of tinkering you can find your way around in it.
anigbrowl 9y ago
A lot of people in the z80 community don't understand Don't be so patronizing. Of course they understand it, but what they want is something different from what you want: status in the demo scene. If they open source it they're likely to end up as a footnote in their own projects rather than basking on difficult-to-scale peaks among their peers. It's not like open-sourcing it is going to enrich them in some more concrete fashion than social currency; in fact, authors of very popular open-source projects regularly find themselves in the humiliating position of having to beg for money.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  >If they open source it they're likely to end up as a footnote in their own projects rather than basking on difficult-to-scale peaks among their peers. What? This doesn't happen.
- userbinator 9y ago
  status in the demo scene ...and since the demoscene is closely associated with the cracking/warez scene, the implicit message is always "if you want to know how it works, get a disassembler and figure it out yourself."
  - ddingus 9y ago
    This
- stuaxo 9y ago
  Agree with all this. Lots of demogroups have started releasing open source these days, which is heartening. There's definitely a feeling that the scene is getting older, so possibly passing on knowledge may be a motivator.
jstewartmobile 9y ago
Z80 OS for a 1980s micro... wouldn't be surprised if the assembly is the source.
- to3m 9y ago
  Labels, macros and comments still help!

Symbos is pretty cool but it's a crying shame that it's closed source. A lot of people in the z80 community don't understand the value of open source, but will give away binaries for free.

aidenn0 9y ago

Indeed, and it makes it harder for me to port to a Kaypro II

aidenn0 9y ago
[edit] Actually none of the supported platforms have less than 128KB of RAM, so it might not run on that.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago

MenuetOS also suffers this problem. The 64 bit version is closed-source/non-Free, but available free of charge. Great way to limit wider interest in the project, and they're not even making bank. They get to spite the people who'd want to fork the project, I guess. The D programming language also had this problem for a long time (closed-source/non-Free compiler backend), but thankfully no longer.

CyberShadow 9y ago
Tiny correction: the reference D compiler's source code was available, but its backend was not Free Software (it was non-redistributable). This was not by choice of its authors, but due to a historical IP/licensing snag. Today it is fully open-source.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  Right. But I did specifically say 'backend'.
frou_dh 9y ago
Just because outsiders consider something a "problem" does not make it so. I find it odd to talk about someone else's baby like that.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  Certainly in the case of D, adoption and real-world usage was/is a goal. Perhaps less so for MenuetOS and SymbOS, but even 'pure' hobby projects tend to enjoy public interest. They don't just live on someone's hard-drive in a basement somewhere. That D's licensing issues are now gone, certainly benefits D. Even if adoption isn't the goal, making it FOSS might still make good sense. Suppose the goals are novelty and technical achievement. More interest means more support in developing their novelty OS, no?

tluyben2 9y ago

I have asked many times for the source from author, Podatron, but he doesn't seem to like the idea. I use Symbos on the MSX-2 and with a disassembler under an emulator you get quite far without the sourecode, especially if you start by studying the source code to the apps on the system. Luckily the system is very small (as is the memory on these machines), so with a few weekends of tinkering you can find your way around in it.

anigbrowl 9y ago

A lot of people in the z80 community don't understand Don't be so patronizing. Of course they understand it, but what they want is something different from what you want: status in the demo scene. If they open source it they're likely to end up as a footnote in their own projects rather than basking on difficult-to-scale peaks among their peers. It's not like open-sourcing it is going to enrich them in some more concrete fashion than social currency; in fact, authors of very popular open-source projects regularly find themselves in the humiliating position of having to beg for money.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
>If they open source it they're likely to end up as a footnote in their own projects rather than basking on difficult-to-scale peaks among their peers. What? This doesn't happen.
userbinator 9y ago
status in the demo scene ...and since the demoscene is closely associated with the cracking/warez scene, the implicit message is always "if you want to know how it works, get a disassembler and figure it out yourself."
- ddingus 9y ago
  This
stuaxo 9y ago
Agree with all this. Lots of demogroups have started releasing open source these days, which is heartening. There's definitely a feeling that the scene is getting older, so possibly passing on knowledge may be a motivator.

jstewartmobile 9y ago

Z80 OS for a 1980s micro... wouldn't be surprised if the assembly is the source.

to3m 9y ago
Labels, macros and comments still help!