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In a pure capitalistic model I only can see how things would converge to the maximum profit possible and not to the best for society possible, you need some lay

In a pure capitalistic model I only can see how things would converge to the maximum profit possible and not to the best for society possible, you need some lay that considers the people and not the money. Why is paying x% tax to go to the health budget such a controversial thing?you still have private hospital and doctors that compete with public ones and you still have a choice, the only issue I see doing this requieres some solidarity and maybe this sentiment is missing in a diverse country like US.

teekert 9y ago
I consider a free market and personal freedom very important. I also prefer not to see lepers in the streets, nor do I prefer to see people with cancer suffer more because they can't pay for treatment. I also like to see the streets safe and well maintained. Finally, I like to live in a society where every kid can go to every school/university. For all this I gladly pay taxes, so I vote for a government that aligns with my world view. Am I a socialist for wanting this? I don't think so. I feel the market should be free and hardly regulated. Tax systems should be simple and fair, without loop holes for the super rich. I think banks should die if they take too much risk (and not be kept alive by the people in some strange overly socialistic way). I think the power should be with the people and not with corporations (which means with wealthy people). I'm a capitalist but I'd like to rid it of the cancer it has been growing lately.
- simion314 9y ago
  I have same values as you, I am getting confused why I see so much socialism is bad on HN, especially from US citizens, is there a confusion like they think socialism means everything is public property, so confusing it with some communism implementations. I understand that fixing the corruption/lobby in current US system would help I am not sure it could be done without some socialist, for the people party/layws.
  - teekert 9y ago
    You're also right, in the end it's just a matter of definitions. Maybe if I don't care about paying a high amount of taxes (but I insist it should be a fair system) I will be called a socialist by some. And actually "fair" is also a nice debate starter. On the other hand, saving a bank with taxpayers money is somehow often regarded as capitalistic. And somehow, creating almost all money as a dept of less wealthy people to more wealthy people, forcing said less wealthy people to pay rent to the more wealthy people for most of their lives is also called capitalistic. These are strange times. Perhaps all this is indeed only corrected with some true socialism :)
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
The following is a quote from Noam Chomsky's book "The ten laws of power" (translated by me from an Italian translation; I wanted something to practice my Italian on that didn't have speech bubbles). It's from the chapter called "Aggredire la Solidarieta" (Erode solidarity): [The assault on solidarity] is the technique utiliesed, for example, to assault public schooling. Public education is founded on the principle of solidarity. My sons don't go to school anymore, they are adults, but in keeping with the principle of solidarity I think "I will voluntarily pay taxes so that the kid that lives in front can go to school". It's an impulse innate to the human being, that nonetheless can be extirpated in such a manner that a person can find themselves thinking: "My sons do not go to school. Why should I pay taxes? Privatise the education system!". All of public education - from prep school to higher education- are attacked in this way. One of the jewels of American society. Chomsky lists complex and varied reasons for how this happened, but basically it comes down to free market capitalism -unsurprisingly, given the author. I kind of tend to agree- in the sense that the "wisdom of the markets" is promulgated as the natural order of things, in US political discourse, at all levels thereof. So everyone grows up and lives in an environment where the highest ideal is to get all the money. I guess, growing up in such an environment it's not so hard to see how people end up not caring about such niceties as taking care of vulnerable members of society, or free education for poor kids and so on.
- simion314 9y ago
  So it seems to be the education and propaganda that causes this. You will need to start fixing the thinking in the population first, politicians won't promote unpopular ideas (unless if they have tons of money behind to offset the extra work of making the unpopular idea popular via propaganda)
sp332 9y ago
But society is made of people. If those people had solidarity to begin with, they wouldn't need a government to get them to take care of each other. That's totally compatible with capitalism. If they don't have solidarity they will never vote for the government to mandate that kind of thing.
- simion314 9y ago
  I think people have solidarity but it applies for a group that you can empathize with,I remember as child in school we had a poor classmate that could not afford to pay to particiapte on some activities and we would help him. I am also thinking when a tragedy happens and appears on TV the number of blood,money, material donations increases so I think people need reminding where the health tax goes, like show children that receive legs,hand or expensive treatment because of the tax.

teekert 9y ago

I consider a free market and personal freedom very important. I also prefer not to see lepers in the streets, nor do I prefer to see people with cancer suffer more because they can't pay for treatment. I also like to see the streets safe and well maintained. Finally, I like to live in a society where every kid can go to every school/university. For all this I gladly pay taxes, so I vote for a government that aligns with my world view. Am I a socialist for wanting this? I don't think so. I feel the market should be free and hardly regulated. Tax systems should be simple and fair, without loop holes for the super rich. I think banks should die if they take too much risk (and not be kept alive by the people in some strange overly socialistic way). I think the power should be with the people and not with corporations (which means with wealthy people). I'm a capitalist but I'd like to rid it of the cancer it has been growing lately.

simion314 9y ago
I have same values as you, I am getting confused why I see so much socialism is bad on HN, especially from US citizens, is there a confusion like they think socialism means everything is public property, so confusing it with some communism implementations. I understand that fixing the corruption/lobby in current US system would help I am not sure it could be done without some socialist, for the people party/layws.
- teekert 9y ago
  You're also right, in the end it's just a matter of definitions. Maybe if I don't care about paying a high amount of taxes (but I insist it should be a fair system) I will be called a socialist by some. And actually "fair" is also a nice debate starter. On the other hand, saving a bank with taxpayers money is somehow often regarded as capitalistic. And somehow, creating almost all money as a dept of less wealthy people to more wealthy people, forcing said less wealthy people to pay rent to the more wealthy people for most of their lives is also called capitalistic. These are strange times. Perhaps all this is indeed only corrected with some true socialism :)

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

The following is a quote from Noam Chomsky's book "The ten laws of power" (translated by me from an Italian translation; I wanted something to practice my Italian on that didn't have speech bubbles). It's from the chapter called "Aggredire la Solidarieta" (Erode solidarity): [The assault on solidarity] is the technique utiliesed, for example, to assault public schooling. Public education is founded on the principle of solidarity. My sons don't go to school anymore, they are adults, but in keeping with the principle of solidarity I think "I will voluntarily pay taxes so that the kid that lives in front can go to school". It's an impulse innate to the human being, that nonetheless can be extirpated in such a manner that a person can find themselves thinking: "My sons do not go to school. Why should I pay taxes? Privatise the education system!". All of public education - from prep school to higher education- are attacked in this way. One of the jewels of American society. Chomsky lists complex and varied reasons for how this happened, but basically it comes down to free market capitalism -unsurprisingly, given the author. I kind of tend to agree- in the sense that the "wisdom of the markets" is promulgated as the natural order of things, in US political discourse, at all levels thereof. So everyone grows up and lives in an environment where the highest ideal is to get all the money. I guess, growing up in such an environment it's not so hard to see how people end up not caring about such niceties as taking care of vulnerable members of society, or free education for poor kids and so on.

simion314 9y ago
So it seems to be the education and propaganda that causes this. You will need to start fixing the thinking in the population first, politicians won't promote unpopular ideas (unless if they have tons of money behind to offset the extra work of making the unpopular idea popular via propaganda)

sp332 9y ago

But society is made of people. If those people had solidarity to begin with, they wouldn't need a government to get them to take care of each other. That's totally compatible with capitalism. If they don't have solidarity they will never vote for the government to mandate that kind of thing.

simion314 9y ago
I think people have solidarity but it applies for a group that you can empathize with,I remember as child in school we had a poor classmate that could not afford to pay to particiapte on some activities and we would help him. I am also thinking when a tragedy happens and appears on TV the number of blood,money, material donations increases so I think people need reminding where the health tax goes, like show children that receive legs,hand or expensive treatment because of the tax.