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You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat

You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat that!

DeusExMachina 9y ago
Besides the snark, you are right. No other animal understands the concept of sacrificing something today to get something better in the future.
- blocked_again 9y ago
  I didn't mean animals don't do sacrifices. I meant they don't do sacrifices for imaginary things.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    How do you know what the ant imagines it is dying for, when it dies for its colony?
- FroshKiller 9y ago
  Squirrels bury acorns they could eat that day so they can have food in the winter instead.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Squirrels don't even remember where they've buried the acorns. They just bury and dig, and with enough squirrels involved it works out. Its an instinct that happens to contribute to survival.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      They sacrifice something - an abundant summer acorn - today to get something better - a scarce winter acorn - in the future. It's a clear counter example to the claim above.
      - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        Except they don't mean to do anything. They're carrying an acorn, they pass a juicy spot, they feel compelled to stick the acorn in the spot. At no time does the squirrel think "I'll sacrifice this food now for food later!" So it's not reasonable to call it a sacrifice except metaphorically?
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        How on earth do you know that? And what difference does 'knowing' make? Do they make the sacrifice or not? They clearly do.
        JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        By reading, being educated. Its far to late to be mystified about how animals work. Its a couple of centuries of study by now, about their instincts and behaviors. And recall, 'understanding the concept of sacrifice' was the topic.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        So you know how animals work! Excellent. Please build me a machine that does the same, to demonstrate your understanding. It can be slow and inefficient to make up for lack of equivalent materials and mechanisms. A simulated one will do. Or just explain how it works. I've been looking forward to reading that book. You'd sell some copies. Also, a nitpick: it's a few millennia of studies by now. For example you can read Aristotle on the topic from 1700+ years ago.
    - eric_the_read 9y ago
      As it happens, not only do they remember, they actually organize their nut storage in geographic chunks: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/squirrels-can-store-the-same-kinds-of-nuts-in-specific-groupings/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/squirrels-can-sto...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Not at all. Many animals cache food for the winter. Many animals will fight to the death to defend their territory, mates, or offspring. Some animals cultivate crops, e.g, ants growing fungus. Many animals actively forage to feed their offspring.
  - DeusExMachina 9y ago
    Those are hardwired instincts, not a conscious reflection on the fact that in the future things might be worse. In fact they are limited to a specific behavior, like storing food, and not generalized across all things that could happen. Fighting to defend territory or feeding offspring are strategies that prove successful for the survival of the species, not tied to consciousness of the future. For example, zebras run away from lions, but only when lions chase them. They are perfectly fine with lions sitting around if all they do is sitting. They don’t think: “at some point that lion will stand up and chase me”
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      How on earth do you state all these things as facts? You are confident about the mental states of zebra? Why?
    - crpatino 9y ago
      If you ever had had a dog, you'd know that it has a mind of his own; probably not a full adult-human sized mind, but maybe about as smart as a toodler (and with a fair component of non-human capabilities on top of that). So, no, animals are not merely flesh robots, which is what "they just act by hardwired insticts" actually mean. That's an old fashioned 19th century idea that needs to be put down if we are ever to figure out what is precisely unique about human nature vs animal one. Geez, the whole "humans are rational animals" is a bunch of ancient greek philosophy (you know, the same guys who claimed that everything was made of fire, water, earth, air and soul). Surely we can do better, after this many millenia???
corecirculator 9y ago
Ants
ajuc 9y ago
I'm positive you can teach dogs to do sth unpleasant to get a treat later. You don't even need to actually give it this treat every time. BTW many horses died for their countries.
dekrg 9y ago
>die for it's country Sure you can argue semantic about how animals don't have countries, but it's a fact that animals do fight and kill each other to protect their territory.
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
*its

You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat that!

DeusExMachina 9y ago

Besides the snark, you are right. No other animal understands the concept of sacrificing something today to get something better in the future.

blocked_again 9y ago
I didn't mean animals don't do sacrifices. I meant they don't do sacrifices for imaginary things.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  How do you know what the ant imagines it is dying for, when it dies for its colony?
FroshKiller 9y ago
Squirrels bury acorns they could eat that day so they can have food in the winter instead.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Squirrels don't even remember where they've buried the acorns. They just bury and dig, and with enough squirrels involved it works out. Its an instinct that happens to contribute to survival.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    They sacrifice something - an abundant summer acorn - today to get something better - a scarce winter acorn - in the future. It's a clear counter example to the claim above.
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      Except they don't mean to do anything. They're carrying an acorn, they pass a juicy spot, they feel compelled to stick the acorn in the spot. At no time does the squirrel think "I'll sacrifice this food now for food later!" So it's not reasonable to call it a sacrifice except metaphorically?
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        How on earth do you know that? And what difference does 'knowing' make? Do they make the sacrifice or not? They clearly do.
        JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        By reading, being educated. Its far to late to be mystified about how animals work. Its a couple of centuries of study by now, about their instincts and behaviors. And recall, 'understanding the concept of sacrifice' was the topic.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        So you know how animals work! Excellent. Please build me a machine that does the same, to demonstrate your understanding. It can be slow and inefficient to make up for lack of equivalent materials and mechanisms. A simulated one will do. Or just explain how it works. I've been looking forward to reading that book. You'd sell some copies. Also, a nitpick: it's a few millennia of studies by now. For example you can read Aristotle on the topic from 1700+ years ago.
  - eric_the_read 9y ago
    As it happens, not only do they remember, they actually organize their nut storage in geographic chunks: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/squirrels-can-store-the-same-kinds-of-nuts-in-specific-groupings/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/squirrels-can-sto...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
robotresearcher 9y ago
Not at all. Many animals cache food for the winter. Many animals will fight to the death to defend their territory, mates, or offspring. Some animals cultivate crops, e.g, ants growing fungus. Many animals actively forage to feed their offspring.
- DeusExMachina 9y ago
  Those are hardwired instincts, not a conscious reflection on the fact that in the future things might be worse. In fact they are limited to a specific behavior, like storing food, and not generalized across all things that could happen. Fighting to defend territory or feeding offspring are strategies that prove successful for the survival of the species, not tied to consciousness of the future. For example, zebras run away from lions, but only when lions chase them. They are perfectly fine with lions sitting around if all they do is sitting. They don’t think: “at some point that lion will stand up and chase me”
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    How on earth do you state all these things as facts? You are confident about the mental states of zebra? Why?
  - crpatino 9y ago
    If you ever had had a dog, you'd know that it has a mind of his own; probably not a full adult-human sized mind, but maybe about as smart as a toodler (and with a fair component of non-human capabilities on top of that). So, no, animals are not merely flesh robots, which is what "they just act by hardwired insticts" actually mean. That's an old fashioned 19th century idea that needs to be put down if we are ever to figure out what is precisely unique about human nature vs animal one. Geez, the whole "humans are rational animals" is a bunch of ancient greek philosophy (you know, the same guys who claimed that everything was made of fire, water, earth, air and soul). Surely we can do better, after this many millenia???

corecirculator 9y ago

Ants

ajuc 9y ago

I'm positive you can teach dogs to do sth unpleasant to get a treat later. You don't even need to actually give it this treat every time. BTW many horses died for their countries.

dekrg 9y ago

>die for it's country Sure you can argue semantic about how animals don't have countries, but it's a fact that animals do fight and kill each other to protect their territory.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

*its