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>We can debate about Uber's business practices until the cows come home, but this is undeniable. This is really strangely dismissive. Does the "paradigm shift"

>We can debate about Uber's business practices until the cows come home, but this is undeniable. This is really strangely dismissive. Does the "paradigm shift" justify any and all of Uber's unethical actions? If so, why do you think breaking the law and harassing rape victims is either acceptable or laudable? If not, why bring it up, unless you're perpetuating some kind of entrepeneur business-worship over basic moral decency?

remarkEon 9y ago
Steve Jobs was, on balance, likely a horrible person and needlessly cruel. I’m still very happy he did what he did. These people are human, and are not without sin. Entrepreneur worship is weird, I agree, however I wouldn’t dismiss the additive things otherwise miserable people did for society.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  Jobs is a great point, for the other argument. Jobs didn't break the law, but he disrupted multiple industries from computers to phones to music to retail.
  - remarkEon 9y ago
    You’re absolutely right. And Travis needs to be criticized for that (and he is). If the question, though, is about judging a company’s contribution to society based on how morally upstanding the founder is I think the point I’m trying to make still stands.
    - craigching 9y ago
      > contribution to society I think it’s too early to judge Uber’s “contribution to society” when the investors are basically footing the bill for all of Uber’s customers. Let’s see Uber make a profit and it still be less costly/better service to what consumers get now and then we can talk about their contribution to society.
      - remarkEon 9y ago
        Making a profit isn’t a fair standard in this case. I left LA recently, but uber made social interactions in that city I’d otherwise pass on totally possible. It honestly opened up moving around LA County in a way that public transit never could. So, no, it’s not too early to judge. We’re already seeing the benefits.
        doktrin 9y ago
        I personally tend to think that I'd value ride sharing services even if prices increase to parity with traditional taxis. After all, just getting a cab in many cities is a real pain point. I also think that ride sharing services are here to stay, and that both individual consumers and society as a whole are better off for it. However, the parents point is more general and I think you're talking past it. You can't evaluate Uber's societal contributions based on short term and possibly ephemeral benefits. For example, if ride sharing services suddenly disintegrate once VC funding dries up then they can't be said to have made a meaningful impact. Sustainability is actually crucial.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      > If the question, though, is about judging a company’s contribution to society based on how morally upstanding the founder is ... Far more than Kalanick's behavior, it is the company's practices that are the problem. They willfully broke the law and they also mistreated many people from employees to drivers to rape victims.
      - remarkEon 9y ago
        I’m agreeing with you, if you can’t tell.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > Jobs didn't break the law Jobs often took an “ask for forgivenss” approach. Copying Xerox [1], screwing Wozniak [2], the naming schtick with the Beatles, et cetera. [1] http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple... [2] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/steve-wozniak-cried-jobs-kept-atari-bonus-267711 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/steve-wozniak-cried-jobs-kept-atari...
    - brandonmenc 9y ago
      > screwing Wozniak This is an unpopular opinion, but if it weren't for Jobs, Woz would have remained an unknown HP engineer.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > This is an unpopular opinion, but if it weren't for Jobs, Woz would have remained an unknown HP engineer I completely agree. I also think Steve Jobs was a great man. Part of his greatness was knowing which rules he could bend, which rules he could break, and deftly negotiating the aftermath.
        forapurpose 9y ago
        > greatness was knowing which rules he could bend, which rules he could break, and deftly negotiating the aftermath. Greatness isn't hurting other people, but finding ways to get things done that benefit all stakeholders, including society and community.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      >> Jobs didn't break the law > Jobs often took an “ask for forgivenss” approach. So we agree: He didn't break the law. Being a jerk to his co-founder is not at all comparable.
stale2002 9y ago
Not the poster, but I don't think it "justifies" and of the bad stuff that happened. But I think it is important to recognize both the bad and the good stuff that happened.

remarkEon 9y ago

Steve Jobs was, on balance, likely a horrible person and needlessly cruel. I’m still very happy he did what he did. These people are human, and are not without sin. Entrepreneur worship is weird, I agree, however I wouldn’t dismiss the additive things otherwise miserable people did for society.

forapurpose 9y ago
Jobs is a great point, for the other argument. Jobs didn't break the law, but he disrupted multiple industries from computers to phones to music to retail.
- remarkEon 9y ago
  You’re absolutely right. And Travis needs to be criticized for that (and he is). If the question, though, is about judging a company’s contribution to society based on how morally upstanding the founder is I think the point I’m trying to make still stands.
  - craigching 9y ago
    > contribution to society I think it’s too early to judge Uber’s “contribution to society” when the investors are basically footing the bill for all of Uber’s customers. Let’s see Uber make a profit and it still be less costly/better service to what consumers get now and then we can talk about their contribution to society.
    - remarkEon 9y ago
      Making a profit isn’t a fair standard in this case. I left LA recently, but uber made social interactions in that city I’d otherwise pass on totally possible. It honestly opened up moving around LA County in a way that public transit never could. So, no, it’s not too early to judge. We’re already seeing the benefits.
      - doktrin 9y ago
        I personally tend to think that I'd value ride sharing services even if prices increase to parity with traditional taxis. After all, just getting a cab in many cities is a real pain point. I also think that ride sharing services are here to stay, and that both individual consumers and society as a whole are better off for it. However, the parents point is more general and I think you're talking past it. You can't evaluate Uber's societal contributions based on short term and possibly ephemeral benefits. For example, if ride sharing services suddenly disintegrate once VC funding dries up then they can't be said to have made a meaningful impact. Sustainability is actually crucial.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > If the question, though, is about judging a company’s contribution to society based on how morally upstanding the founder is ... Far more than Kalanick's behavior, it is the company's practices that are the problem. They willfully broke the law and they also mistreated many people from employees to drivers to rape victims.
    - remarkEon 9y ago
      I’m agreeing with you, if you can’t tell.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > Jobs didn't break the law Jobs often took an “ask for forgivenss” approach. Copying Xerox [1], screwing Wozniak [2], the naming schtick with the Beatles, et cetera. [1] http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple... [2] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/steve-wozniak-cried-jobs-kept-atari-bonus-267711 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/steve-wozniak-cried-jobs-kept-atari...
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    > screwing Wozniak This is an unpopular opinion, but if it weren't for Jobs, Woz would have remained an unknown HP engineer.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > This is an unpopular opinion, but if it weren't for Jobs, Woz would have remained an unknown HP engineer I completely agree. I also think Steve Jobs was a great man. Part of his greatness was knowing which rules he could bend, which rules he could break, and deftly negotiating the aftermath.
      - forapurpose 9y ago
        > greatness was knowing which rules he could bend, which rules he could break, and deftly negotiating the aftermath. Greatness isn't hurting other people, but finding ways to get things done that benefit all stakeholders, including society and community.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    >> Jobs didn't break the law > Jobs often took an “ask for forgivenss” approach. So we agree: He didn't break the law. Being a jerk to his co-founder is not at all comparable.

stale2002 9y ago

Not the poster, but I don't think it "justifies" and of the bad stuff that happened. But I think it is important to recognize both the bad and the good stuff that happened.