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The innovation doesnt matter. For something to have fundamental value, there has to be some mechanism by which that value can be realized. With fiat currency,

The innovation doesnt matter. For something to have fundamental value, there has to be some mechanism by which that value can be realized. With fiat currency, that mechanism is that I can easily and quickly exchange it for practically any service offered by pretty much anybody in the whole world, and that is backed by governments and large stable infrastructure. All money is just a medium to exchange work between people, rather than a trade and barter economy which is inefficient. Any current uses of bitcoin do not show it is a currency. I can probably convince a lot of people (especially in 3rd world countries) to accept things like cigarettes as payment. Heck, I could probably convince a lot of tradespeople to accept a car or some other valuable item in payment. None of these are ever going to be currency. Just like these, bitcoin lacks the fundamental advantages that were behind the adoption of money in the first place, so its extreme to suggest this is a realistic outcome. As an asset, bitcoin has no tie to anything of tangible value. A stock is ownership of a portion of an operational company. You get a cut of all future profits. There is an anchor to some real world value. The reason google isnt worth 1c a share, is because you could buy the stock and receive a share of the profit. If the market suddenly went crazy, and drove google down to 1c for no reason at all and kept it there for the rest of time, its (hypothetically) no issue for you. You still receive the same % of profits and you laugh all the way to the bank. Apply the same test to bitcoin. If the price went to 1c tomorrow and stayed their for the rest of time, how would you earn back your 19k usd per bitcoin? You couldnt. And the commodity argument is even weaker - commodities trade because they have a use. Sugar, pork belly, wheat, oil etc. All have much more trade based on requirements of the underlying than speculation. These are staples of human activity. Suggesting bitcoin has any fundamental end use that outweighs speculation is just crazy.

arisAlexis 9y ago
just because you mentioned Africa, cryptocurrency properties make bitcoin trading in oppressed regimes at 40% premium. just as you said bartering needs some currency bitcoin can provide that worldwide bettering the infrastructure and diminishing oppression. if we are talking high fees and speed im with you and believe other cryptocurrencies are better.
- spiralx 9y ago
  Do you have any actual evidence of that? Sounds like an even more implausible scenario than the Venezuela one that turned out to be just endless hype.
  - davidgerard 9y ago
    this is typical of Bitcoin advocacy - arguments are abbreviated to dropping a few words that allude to the concept of an actual argument - a refutation by vague reference. Answering these is annoying, because it pretty much requires you to make their argument for them. In this case I think the thing he's alluding to is when bitcoins were "$13,000" in Zimbabwe but $9,000 elsewhere. What was happening was that this was the price in the local USD-substitute currency, which traded at a 40% discount to actual dollars: “This new currency was supposed to be fully convertible into U.S. dollars, a promise that has proven to be illusory. It has since slipped to a large discount to the dollar. So when Zimbabweans buy bitcoin for $13800 — they aren’t paying with U.S. dollars, they are paying with this new unit … In Zimbabwe, the market exchange rate is set unofficially, on street corners and such. Without an on-the-ground data gathering network to canvas street corners, an outside observer can get a decent proxy for the exchange rate by gathering bitcoin prices on the internet.” https://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/zimbabwe-and-hyperbitcoinization.html https://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/zimbabwe-and-hyperbi...
  - arisAlexis 9y ago
    you can check prices live and read articles about Zimbabwe and other countries
kingvest 9y ago
> With fiat currency, that mechanism is that I can easily and quickly exchange it for practically any service offered by pretty much anybody in the whole world, and that is backed by governments and large stable infrastructure. That is precisely what makes Bitcoin so attractive. Governments and central banks are losing trust by increasing the monetary base significantly over the last years. The real bubble is in commercial bank and central bank money, combined with zero interest rates (artificial price manipulation of savings). Bitcoin can quickly and easily be exchanged for practically any service in the world. Within the next months, we will see a change of unit of account to Bits (1 million bits = 1 Bitcoin). This will make using Bitcoin in every day transactions much easier. The large stable infrastructure is built as we speak. Compare it to how the Internet was slow and clumsy in 1995: nobody could imagine streaming movies at that time. Now it's reality. > As an asset, bitcoin has no tie to anything of tangible value. That's precisely what makes Bitcoin so attractive as money and Google shares so unattractive as money. If somebody would pay for your services in Google shares, you would first have to do an in-depth research of the underlying value of the share before accepting it as payment.

arisAlexis 9y ago

just because you mentioned Africa, cryptocurrency properties make bitcoin trading in oppressed regimes at 40% premium. just as you said bartering needs some currency bitcoin can provide that worldwide bettering the infrastructure and diminishing oppression. if we are talking high fees and speed im with you and believe other cryptocurrencies are better.

spiralx 9y ago
Do you have any actual evidence of that? Sounds like an even more implausible scenario than the Venezuela one that turned out to be just endless hype.
- davidgerard 9y ago
  this is typical of Bitcoin advocacy - arguments are abbreviated to dropping a few words that allude to the concept of an actual argument - a refutation by vague reference. Answering these is annoying, because it pretty much requires you to make their argument for them. In this case I think the thing he's alluding to is when bitcoins were "$13,000" in Zimbabwe but $9,000 elsewhere. What was happening was that this was the price in the local USD-substitute currency, which traded at a 40% discount to actual dollars: “This new currency was supposed to be fully convertible into U.S. dollars, a promise that has proven to be illusory. It has since slipped to a large discount to the dollar. So when Zimbabweans buy bitcoin for $13800 — they aren’t paying with U.S. dollars, they are paying with this new unit … In Zimbabwe, the market exchange rate is set unofficially, on street corners and such. Without an on-the-ground data gathering network to canvas street corners, an outside observer can get a decent proxy for the exchange rate by gathering bitcoin prices on the internet.” https://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/zimbabwe-and-hyperbitcoinization.html https://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/zimbabwe-and-hyperbi...
- arisAlexis 9y ago
  you can check prices live and read articles about Zimbabwe and other countries

kingvest 9y ago

> With fiat currency, that mechanism is that I can easily and quickly exchange it for practically any service offered by pretty much anybody in the whole world, and that is backed by governments and large stable infrastructure. That is precisely what makes Bitcoin so attractive. Governments and central banks are losing trust by increasing the monetary base significantly over the last years. The real bubble is in commercial bank and central bank money, combined with zero interest rates (artificial price manipulation of savings). Bitcoin can quickly and easily be exchanged for practically any service in the world. Within the next months, we will see a change of unit of account to Bits (1 million bits = 1 Bitcoin). This will make using Bitcoin in every day transactions much easier. The large stable infrastructure is built as we speak. Compare it to how the Internet was slow and clumsy in 1995: nobody could imagine streaming movies at that time. Now it's reality. > As an asset, bitcoin has no tie to anything of tangible value. That's precisely what makes Bitcoin so attractive as money and Google shares so unattractive as money. If somebody would pay for your services in Google shares, you would first have to do an in-depth research of the underlying value of the share before accepting it as payment.