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Yes after a full source code review. :-P Like it or not, you have to place trust somewhere. Maybe it’s not Apple, but pretending one has full visibility over e

Yes after a full source code review. :-P Like it or not, you have to place trust somewhere. Maybe it’s not Apple, but pretending one has full visibility over every system is just going to create cognitive dissonance.

lisper 9y ago
At least with Linux I can do a code review. Or hire someone I trust to do it for me. With a closed system that is not an option.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  You can reverse engineer the firmware files though. I do this very often when new versions of iOS are released.
- jdc0589 9y ago
  I mean yea, but this is about a processor and related microcode. It sucks, but there literally is no real mainstream opensource audit-able option for the consumer market right now.
  - lisper 9y ago
    There's this: https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/ https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/ Not quite ready for prime-time, but it's a big step in the right direction. At least there's hope for future.
- scarface74 9y ago
  So you can do a code review on the entire Linux codebase and you are skilled enough to find any security vulnerability? Can the person you hire do it? Would they have found the Heartbleed issue that was in open source code for at least two years?
  - lisper 9y ago
    > So you can do a code review on the entire Linux codebase and you are skilled enough to find any security vulnerability? My odds there are much better than they are trying to do a similar audit on MacOS. > Can the person you hire do it? There are people out there who are extraordinarily skilled at this sort of thing. Security flaws in, say, iOS are found regularly. That's how jailbreaks work. (And, BTW, the fact that Apple doesn't give me the option of opening up the jail on my own phone means that if I want this freedom I have no choice but to run some black-box binary from some unknown Chinese hackers. That is by far the biggest security risk I face when using Apple products and it is a direct result of their policies.) > Would they have found the Heartbleed issue that was in open source code for at least two years? They did find it, and I didn't even have to pay them. If I had paid someone to look, they might have found it sooner. No system will ever be perfect. But I like my odds on Linux much better than on Apple.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      My odds there are much better than they are trying to do a similar audit on MacOS. Based on what metrics? Someone skilled in Assembly can and has found many vulnerabilities in closed source software. The chance of you as an individual being able to audit the entire Linux codebase and finding a new vulnerability are nil unless you have some special skills that you haven't mentioned that make you better than some of the top hackers and researchers. There are people out there who are extraordinarily skilled at this sort of thing. Security flaws in, say, iOS are found regularly. Despite the fact that is closed. How does that support your point that "open" software is easier to find vulnerabilities. You said that you could hire someone to audit the code, could you afford them? That's how jailbreaks work Without the code being open... (And, BTW, the fact that Apple doesn't give me the option of opening up the jail on my own phone means that if I want this freedom I have no choice but to run some black-box binary from some unknown Chinese hackers. That is by far the biggest security risk I face when using Apple products and it is a direct result of their policies.) Apple has the source code for all of the chips they use and they had a hand in designing most of them. As opposed to the random Android manufacturer who outsources their chips and the manufacturers give the OEMs binary blob drivers. Even Google said they couldn't upgrade one of their devices because they couldn't get drivers for one of their chips. Do you really run your Android phone with all open source software that you compiled and installed yourself? Including the various drivers? Have you audited all of it? They did find it, and I didn't even have to pay them. If I had paid someone to look, they might have found it sooner. And they've also found bugs in close Software and if you pay someone enough they could find stuff too. No system will ever be perfect. But I like my odds on Linux much better than on Apple. Based on what objective metrics?
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  Even with Linux on an open system, you're going to be hard pressed to get access to the source code for all of the controllers in your system.
- valuearb 9y ago
  How did you audit your intel CPU the last 10 years?
  - lisper 9y ago
    I didn't because I can't (obviously) and this is a real problem, which I am trying to solve by building my own hardware to act as a root of trust: https://sc4.us/hsm/ https://sc4.us/hsm/
    - walterbell 9y ago
      Website mentions fully open hw+sw, is this public?
      - lisper 9y ago
        Depends on what you mean. The code is all open source, and the hardware is all off-the-shelf. But the board design has not been released. If you really want it drop me a line and we can probably work something out.
criddell 9y ago
I've heard the argument before that you are better off reviewing a disassembled binary than the original source code because you are going to be influenced by layout, variable names, and comments which could mislead you.
specialist 9y ago
The only system I trust is mutual distrust. Where competing beligerents beat the tar out of each other. The US Govt’s Constitutional balance of powers (executive vs legislature vs courts) is based on this principle. It seems to be the best available solution found thus far. Note: I am an Apple fan boy. Source: Am also an election integrity activist, which greatly informs my views on trust, privacy, security, transparency, accountability.

lisper 9y ago

At least with Linux I can do a code review. Or hire someone I trust to do it for me. With a closed system that is not an option.

willstrafach 9y ago
You can reverse engineer the firmware files though. I do this very often when new versions of iOS are released.
jdc0589 9y ago
I mean yea, but this is about a processor and related microcode. It sucks, but there literally is no real mainstream opensource audit-able option for the consumer market right now.
- lisper 9y ago
  There's this: https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/ https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/ Not quite ready for prime-time, but it's a big step in the right direction. At least there's hope for future.
scarface74 9y ago
So you can do a code review on the entire Linux codebase and you are skilled enough to find any security vulnerability? Can the person you hire do it? Would they have found the Heartbleed issue that was in open source code for at least two years?
- lisper 9y ago
  > So you can do a code review on the entire Linux codebase and you are skilled enough to find any security vulnerability? My odds there are much better than they are trying to do a similar audit on MacOS. > Can the person you hire do it? There are people out there who are extraordinarily skilled at this sort of thing. Security flaws in, say, iOS are found regularly. That's how jailbreaks work. (And, BTW, the fact that Apple doesn't give me the option of opening up the jail on my own phone means that if I want this freedom I have no choice but to run some black-box binary from some unknown Chinese hackers. That is by far the biggest security risk I face when using Apple products and it is a direct result of their policies.) > Would they have found the Heartbleed issue that was in open source code for at least two years? They did find it, and I didn't even have to pay them. If I had paid someone to look, they might have found it sooner. No system will ever be perfect. But I like my odds on Linux much better than on Apple.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    My odds there are much better than they are trying to do a similar audit on MacOS. Based on what metrics? Someone skilled in Assembly can and has found many vulnerabilities in closed source software. The chance of you as an individual being able to audit the entire Linux codebase and finding a new vulnerability are nil unless you have some special skills that you haven't mentioned that make you better than some of the top hackers and researchers. There are people out there who are extraordinarily skilled at this sort of thing. Security flaws in, say, iOS are found regularly. Despite the fact that is closed. How does that support your point that "open" software is easier to find vulnerabilities. You said that you could hire someone to audit the code, could you afford them? That's how jailbreaks work Without the code being open... (And, BTW, the fact that Apple doesn't give me the option of opening up the jail on my own phone means that if I want this freedom I have no choice but to run some black-box binary from some unknown Chinese hackers. That is by far the biggest security risk I face when using Apple products and it is a direct result of their policies.) Apple has the source code for all of the chips they use and they had a hand in designing most of them. As opposed to the random Android manufacturer who outsources their chips and the manufacturers give the OEMs binary blob drivers. Even Google said they couldn't upgrade one of their devices because they couldn't get drivers for one of their chips. Do you really run your Android phone with all open source software that you compiled and installed yourself? Including the various drivers? Have you audited all of it? They did find it, and I didn't even have to pay them. If I had paid someone to look, they might have found it sooner. And they've also found bugs in close Software and if you pay someone enough they could find stuff too. No system will ever be perfect. But I like my odds on Linux much better than on Apple. Based on what objective metrics?
darpa_escapee 9y ago
Even with Linux on an open system, you're going to be hard pressed to get access to the source code for all of the controllers in your system.
valuearb 9y ago
How did you audit your intel CPU the last 10 years?
- lisper 9y ago
  I didn't because I can't (obviously) and this is a real problem, which I am trying to solve by building my own hardware to act as a root of trust: https://sc4.us/hsm/ https://sc4.us/hsm/
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Website mentions fully open hw+sw, is this public?
    - lisper 9y ago
      Depends on what you mean. The code is all open source, and the hardware is all off-the-shelf. But the board design has not been released. If you really want it drop me a line and we can probably work something out.

criddell 9y ago

I've heard the argument before that you are better off reviewing a disassembled binary than the original source code because you are going to be influenced by layout, variable names, and comments which could mislead you.

specialist 9y ago

The only system I trust is mutual distrust. Where competing beligerents beat the tar out of each other. The US Govt’s Constitutional balance of powers (executive vs legislature vs courts) is based on this principle. It seems to be the best available solution found thus far. Note: I am an Apple fan boy. Source: Am also an election integrity activist, which greatly informs my views on trust, privacy, security, transparency, accountability.