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if youd like to cut past the fanboy fluff... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_mobile_application_processors#Apple_T2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_mobi

if youd like to cut past the fanboy fluff... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_mobile_application_processors#Apple_T2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_mobile_application_proce... The Apple T2 chip is a SoC from Apple mainly serving as a secure enclave for encrypted keys in the iMac Pro 2017. It gives users the ability to lock down the computer's boot process. It also handles system functions like the camera and audio control, and manages the solid-state drive.

djsumdog 9y ago
So it's basically SecureBoot + lets remove the SATA controller, the audio chip, the H264 chip and roll them into one chip. It feels like horizontal integration; similar to what Elon Musk does with SpaceX by integrating the pipeline and producing everything internally to save costs. The article doesn't sound very revolutionary. They're saving money, maybe a little space, by producing all those subsystems themselves. So long as they don't lock down the hardware so you can run Linux or other operating systems on it, I guess that's okay. Still, it sounds very non-upgradable. The article mentions the memory comes in two banks. Is it replaceable, or is it soldered to the board? nvme ssd cards are super tiny, super fast and super standardized. I can upgrade the ones in most laptops. I can replace a dying battery. Apple seems more geared to people who don't like to fix things or work on their own machines.
- atonse 9y ago
  It's PCIE/NVMe and removable [1]. But I don't know if it's a standard M2 slot. I doubt it. I didn't mind these proprietary connectors until I dropped tea on my laptop. I took it to the apple store to get them to retrieve my data, but they said even THEY don't have the means to read data from their proprietary SSD connector, and instead told me to go to a data recovery company. I understand they use proprietary connectors, if they empower their support techs to have means to also recover from catastrophe, it would help the customer a lot more. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Pro+Teardown/101807#s191192 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Pro+Teardown/101807#s19...
  - wmf 9y ago
    The thing is that it's not PCIe/NVMe.
    - atonse 9y ago
      I don’t know for sure but you can still be pcie and nvme with a different connector probably.
      - duskwuff 9y ago
        You can't be PCIe/NVMe without a flash controller, though. The chips on the storage cards in the iMac Pro are all just raw flash; there's no controller or associated DRAM.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- M4v3R 9y ago
  From what I saw from the teardowns both RAM and SSD chips are replaceable. It’s not super easy because you need to take the screen off first, but it is doable.
  - abrowne 9y ago
    Take the screen off, then take the whole mainboard out, since the slots are on the back.
- j_s 9y ago
  How has [edit] T1/T2 device driver support worked out in practice so far for Linux and less-popular alternative operating systems on the new hardware? https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux (T1) not working: audio, suspend/hibernation. 2/6 models working: WiFi I'm probably most interested in hearing more about OpenBSD support, I'm not finding much recent info.
  - Dunedan 9y ago
    You probably mean T1, as the repo covers MacBook Pros and not the iMac Pro. While I agree that hardware support isn't where it should, it's getting better. Hey, we even have a working driver for the internal keyboard since several months. ;) No, seriously: Currently most effort is going into mainlining Bluetooth support for the current MacBook Pros (I expected that to land in Linux 4.17, although it still might get squeezed into 4.16) and preparing the keyboard/touchpad driver for mainlining as well. The Wifi issue is really a shame, but as far as we know it's entirely to blame on Broadcom as their Linux firmware has an issue preventing it to work properly [1], something which can't be fixed by somebody outside of Broadcom. And to be clear: That so much stuff isn't working under Linux with the current MacBook Pros isn't really something to blame Apple for. What Apple simply did is what they always do: Rethink how they can improve stuff and they did a great job with it. E.g. it makes perfect sense to connect the internal keyboard via SPI instead of via USB, simply for power-saving (and probably complexity) reasons. As Apple is the first vendor to do such things there are simply no Linux drivers for it yet. Or look at Bluetooth, which is now connected via UART. It appears that this will be the way to go for all vendors in future, but only a few are already doing it, so there are still some rough edges which need to be smoothed out. [1]: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121
- btian 9y ago
  This is called vertical integration, same for SpaceX. Horizontal integration is like making computers, and also making elevators (e.g., Samsung) EDIT: that wasn't a correct example. Horizontal integration would be company making mobile phone SoC, then make server SoC like Qualcomm (since both use the same supply chain).
  - scarface74 9y ago
    That's called no integration. It's a conglomerate.
  - guelo 9y ago
    Horizontal means owning everything at the same level. So things like making mobile and server CPUs or acquiring competitors. Vertical is selling CPUs and computers.
- saagarjha 9y ago
  > The article mentions the memory comes in two banks. Is it replaceable, or is it soldered to the board? Depends on your definition of replaceable. Apple can do it, and you can too, since it’s not soldered onto the motherboard. However, you’d have to open up most of the computer and remove the display, which is “unsupported” by Apple.
- deong 9y ago
  If "upgradeable" matters at all, you're not buying Apple stuff anyway. You may as well assume everything they make is an iPhone and make your purchasing decisions from there.
- IncRnd 9y ago
  > It feels like horizontal integration; similar to what Elon Musk does with SpaceX by integrating the pipeline and producing everything internally to save costs. Since the T2 is Apple's chip, this is vertical integration not horizontal. Owning the supply chain is vertical integration.
djrogers 9y ago
How can you say ‘mainly serving as a secure enclave’ then list a bunch of it’s other equally (or more) important functions? It’s not ‘mainly’ any one thing, anymore than your laptop’s CPU is ‘mainly’ a JavaScript processor.
- sowbug 9y ago
  Have fun attacking your strawman.
cbsmith 9y ago
The secure enclave is the only part of this that might be considered unique... and I'm not even feeling like that's a terribly great idea (combining it with other functions).

djsumdog 9y ago

So it's basically SecureBoot + lets remove the SATA controller, the audio chip, the H264 chip and roll them into one chip. It feels like horizontal integration; similar to what Elon Musk does with SpaceX by integrating the pipeline and producing everything internally to save costs. The article doesn't sound very revolutionary. They're saving money, maybe a little space, by producing all those subsystems themselves. So long as they don't lock down the hardware so you can run Linux or other operating systems on it, I guess that's okay. Still, it sounds very non-upgradable. The article mentions the memory comes in two banks. Is it replaceable, or is it soldered to the board? nvme ssd cards are super tiny, super fast and super standardized. I can upgrade the ones in most laptops. I can replace a dying battery. Apple seems more geared to people who don't like to fix things or work on their own machines.

atonse 9y ago
It's PCIE/NVMe and removable [1]. But I don't know if it's a standard M2 slot. I doubt it. I didn't mind these proprietary connectors until I dropped tea on my laptop. I took it to the apple store to get them to retrieve my data, but they said even THEY don't have the means to read data from their proprietary SSD connector, and instead told me to go to a data recovery company. I understand they use proprietary connectors, if they empower their support techs to have means to also recover from catastrophe, it would help the customer a lot more. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Pro+Teardown/101807#s191192 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Pro+Teardown/101807#s19...
- wmf 9y ago
  The thing is that it's not PCIe/NVMe.
  - atonse 9y ago
    I don’t know for sure but you can still be pcie and nvme with a different connector probably.
    - duskwuff 9y ago
      You can't be PCIe/NVMe without a flash controller, though. The chips on the storage cards in the iMac Pro are all just raw flash; there's no controller or associated DRAM.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
M4v3R 9y ago
From what I saw from the teardowns both RAM and SSD chips are replaceable. It’s not super easy because you need to take the screen off first, but it is doable.
- abrowne 9y ago
  Take the screen off, then take the whole mainboard out, since the slots are on the back.
j_s 9y ago
How has [edit] T1/T2 device driver support worked out in practice so far for Linux and less-popular alternative operating systems on the new hardware? https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux (T1) not working: audio, suspend/hibernation. 2/6 models working: WiFi I'm probably most interested in hearing more about OpenBSD support, I'm not finding much recent info.
- Dunedan 9y ago
  You probably mean T1, as the repo covers MacBook Pros and not the iMac Pro. While I agree that hardware support isn't where it should, it's getting better. Hey, we even have a working driver for the internal keyboard since several months. ;) No, seriously: Currently most effort is going into mainlining Bluetooth support for the current MacBook Pros (I expected that to land in Linux 4.17, although it still might get squeezed into 4.16) and preparing the keyboard/touchpad driver for mainlining as well. The Wifi issue is really a shame, but as far as we know it's entirely to blame on Broadcom as their Linux firmware has an issue preventing it to work properly [1], something which can't be fixed by somebody outside of Broadcom. And to be clear: That so much stuff isn't working under Linux with the current MacBook Pros isn't really something to blame Apple for. What Apple simply did is what they always do: Rethink how they can improve stuff and they did a great job with it. E.g. it makes perfect sense to connect the internal keyboard via SPI instead of via USB, simply for power-saving (and probably complexity) reasons. As Apple is the first vendor to do such things there are simply no Linux drivers for it yet. Or look at Bluetooth, which is now connected via UART. It appears that this will be the way to go for all vendors in future, but only a few are already doing it, so there are still some rough edges which need to be smoothed out. [1]: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121
btian 9y ago
This is called vertical integration, same for SpaceX. Horizontal integration is like making computers, and also making elevators (e.g., Samsung) EDIT: that wasn't a correct example. Horizontal integration would be company making mobile phone SoC, then make server SoC like Qualcomm (since both use the same supply chain).
- scarface74 9y ago
  That's called no integration. It's a conglomerate.
- guelo 9y ago
  Horizontal means owning everything at the same level. So things like making mobile and server CPUs or acquiring competitors. Vertical is selling CPUs and computers.
saagarjha 9y ago
> The article mentions the memory comes in two banks. Is it replaceable, or is it soldered to the board? Depends on your definition of replaceable. Apple can do it, and you can too, since it’s not soldered onto the motherboard. However, you’d have to open up most of the computer and remove the display, which is “unsupported” by Apple.
deong 9y ago
If "upgradeable" matters at all, you're not buying Apple stuff anyway. You may as well assume everything they make is an iPhone and make your purchasing decisions from there.
IncRnd 9y ago
> It feels like horizontal integration; similar to what Elon Musk does with SpaceX by integrating the pipeline and producing everything internally to save costs. Since the T2 is Apple's chip, this is vertical integration not horizontal. Owning the supply chain is vertical integration.

djrogers 9y ago

How can you say ‘mainly serving as a secure enclave’ then list a bunch of it’s other equally (or more) important functions? It’s not ‘mainly’ any one thing, anymore than your laptop’s CPU is ‘mainly’ a JavaScript processor.

sowbug 9y ago
Have fun attacking your strawman.

cbsmith 9y ago

The secure enclave is the only part of this that might be considered unique... and I'm not even feeling like that's a terribly great idea (combining it with other functions).