4 ms·

When you focus on certain groups you're probably missing the point. There are Christian parents who have banned their child from returning home when they renou

When you focus on certain groups you're probably missing the point. There are Christian parents who have banned their child from returning home when they renounced religion. And there are many Muslims who accept people after they renounce Islam. Instead, probably better to say: When people harass someone who doesn't agree with them, I feel afraid for that person's safety. That's not racist and still honors your fear. To just focus on Muslims doing this shows a bias and lumps many innocent people into a stereotype.

nailer 9y ago
Focusing on ideas is necessary to deal with the problem. By ignoring it, you're missing the point. You seem to think I'm focusing on people, but: a person who believes in the idea of Islam is a Muslim, is the same way a person who believes in communism is a communist and a person who believes in fascism is a fascist. There is little difference between saying a bad idea is bad versus saying supporters of a bad idea are bad for supporting it. Surveying Muslims worldwide and asking them if, for example, they think being gay should be illegal, and reporting what they say, is not bias, it is fact. You're promoting bias by suggesting we ignore those results. And again, because you haven't responded: Islam isn't a race. If we can be racist aginst Islam, can we be racist against people who like stuffed crust pizza?
- everdev 9y ago
  It's much better to say "I'm afraid for the safety and lack of equality and freedom for gay people if being gay is illegal." By focusing on Muslims, you're making it personal and ignoring many non-Muslim countries and religions which have anti-gay beliefs. If the gay equality issue is important to you, why are you focused so narrowly on Muslims? Why not simply focus on your core issue which is equality for gays? Making it about your fear allows people to hear you and is not arguable. Saying "Muslims are anti-gay" is arguable because you can't accurately survey billions of Muslims worldwide and statistically you'll probably find millions of Muslims who don't agree with every aspect of the religion and some that are gay themselves. Religion and races are not consistent or homogenous. Lumping people together on those criteria is rarely accurate or productive. For semantics, the term racism applies to race as you mentioned. If you hate Muslims that I suppose the best way to describe you is bigoted or a religious discriminator. And as you seem intent on the pizza aspect, pizza isn't a person. While hating a pizza sounds like anger issues, it's certainly not the same connotation or implications of hating a person. If you want to be kinder to your pizza friends, you could say "I prefer the taste of thin crust pizza". If you want to be kinder to your human friends, I would focus on what you want rather than what you think a group of unique people is all acting out in unison.
  - nailer 9y ago
    > It's much better to say "I'm afraid for the safety and lack of equality and freedom for gay people if being gay is illegal." By focusing on Muslims, you're making it personal and ignoring many non-Muslim countries and religions which have anti-gay beliefs. No, you're avoiding the root causes because you're afraid to address them, which in turns harms gay people, women, ex-Muslims, atheists and other victims of Islam. Not focusing on Islam- related violence towards gays and women because other violence towards gays and women exists is awful. > Religion and races We haven't talked about a single race the entire discussion. Why are you introducing it? > And as you seem intent on the pizza aspect, pizza isn't a person. You're right, it's an idea. Let's call people who believe in this idea StuffCrustPizzaLovers. Do you think disliking StuffCrustPizzaLovers is racist? If I say 'Islam is bad' - since Islam isn't a person - is that now OK according to your rules? > rather than what you think a group of unique people is all acting out in unison. Not sure if you're lying or just not reading anything I'm writing, but I'm focusing on what's been measured, as previously discussed, using Muslims' opinion as a primary source. Are you saying think most Muslims are liars? If you want to stop making the world worse, let people who have the courage to report problems do their jobs without labelling them racist.
    - everdev 9y ago
      Or, simply confronting violence against gays includes Islam-related violence against gays. I'm simply not excluding other violence against gays from my outrage. Rather than saying "Islam is bad", it might be better to say "I don't like X about Islam because Y." If you are more specific and give a reason, it's easier for people to hear you. But yes, taking the person out of it does make it easier for people to hear you as well. I'm more calling into question the feasibility of accurately surveying billions of Muslims worldwide, especially in authoritarian countries where people might not feel free to be honest, or in war torn countries where access is dangerous or impossible. In any event, do you have a citation for this global survey? I think you make the world better by calling out the problem exactly as you mentioned. But I would advocate focusing on the problem. I can't think of any human behavior that is universally contained and ubiquitous within a single race or religion. Even if you take the most sensational elements of Islam like stoning someone to death, very few Muslim countries practice that, so it's not ubiquitous. Or, if you call out something so common world-wide as anti-gay laws or behavior, it seems like you're consciously ignoring the billions of non-Muslims who live in governments or follow religions with active discrimination based on sexual orientation. Religions are so broad and open to interpretation that it's probably statistically impossible not to find anything you agree with (or disagree with) in a major religion. Instead, it sounds like there are specific human behaviors that don't sit well with you and that's totally understandable.

nailer 9y ago

Focusing on ideas is necessary to deal with the problem. By ignoring it, you're missing the point. You seem to think I'm focusing on people, but: a person who believes in the idea of Islam is a Muslim, is the same way a person who believes in communism is a communist and a person who believes in fascism is a fascist. There is little difference between saying a bad idea is bad versus saying supporters of a bad idea are bad for supporting it. Surveying Muslims worldwide and asking them if, for example, they think being gay should be illegal, and reporting what they say, is not bias, it is fact. You're promoting bias by suggesting we ignore those results. And again, because you haven't responded: Islam isn't a race. If we can be racist aginst Islam, can we be racist against people who like stuffed crust pizza?

everdev 9y ago
It's much better to say "I'm afraid for the safety and lack of equality and freedom for gay people if being gay is illegal." By focusing on Muslims, you're making it personal and ignoring many non-Muslim countries and religions which have anti-gay beliefs. If the gay equality issue is important to you, why are you focused so narrowly on Muslims? Why not simply focus on your core issue which is equality for gays? Making it about your fear allows people to hear you and is not arguable. Saying "Muslims are anti-gay" is arguable because you can't accurately survey billions of Muslims worldwide and statistically you'll probably find millions of Muslims who don't agree with every aspect of the religion and some that are gay themselves. Religion and races are not consistent or homogenous. Lumping people together on those criteria is rarely accurate or productive. For semantics, the term racism applies to race as you mentioned. If you hate Muslims that I suppose the best way to describe you is bigoted or a religious discriminator. And as you seem intent on the pizza aspect, pizza isn't a person. While hating a pizza sounds like anger issues, it's certainly not the same connotation or implications of hating a person. If you want to be kinder to your pizza friends, you could say "I prefer the taste of thin crust pizza". If you want to be kinder to your human friends, I would focus on what you want rather than what you think a group of unique people is all acting out in unison.
- nailer 9y ago
  > It's much better to say "I'm afraid for the safety and lack of equality and freedom for gay people if being gay is illegal." By focusing on Muslims, you're making it personal and ignoring many non-Muslim countries and religions which have anti-gay beliefs. No, you're avoiding the root causes because you're afraid to address them, which in turns harms gay people, women, ex-Muslims, atheists and other victims of Islam. Not focusing on Islam- related violence towards gays and women because other violence towards gays and women exists is awful. > Religion and races We haven't talked about a single race the entire discussion. Why are you introducing it? > And as you seem intent on the pizza aspect, pizza isn't a person. You're right, it's an idea. Let's call people who believe in this idea StuffCrustPizzaLovers. Do you think disliking StuffCrustPizzaLovers is racist? If I say 'Islam is bad' - since Islam isn't a person - is that now OK according to your rules? > rather than what you think a group of unique people is all acting out in unison. Not sure if you're lying or just not reading anything I'm writing, but I'm focusing on what's been measured, as previously discussed, using Muslims' opinion as a primary source. Are you saying think most Muslims are liars? If you want to stop making the world worse, let people who have the courage to report problems do their jobs without labelling them racist.
  - everdev 9y ago
    Or, simply confronting violence against gays includes Islam-related violence against gays. I'm simply not excluding other violence against gays from my outrage. Rather than saying "Islam is bad", it might be better to say "I don't like X about Islam because Y." If you are more specific and give a reason, it's easier for people to hear you. But yes, taking the person out of it does make it easier for people to hear you as well. I'm more calling into question the feasibility of accurately surveying billions of Muslims worldwide, especially in authoritarian countries where people might not feel free to be honest, or in war torn countries where access is dangerous or impossible. In any event, do you have a citation for this global survey? I think you make the world better by calling out the problem exactly as you mentioned. But I would advocate focusing on the problem. I can't think of any human behavior that is universally contained and ubiquitous within a single race or religion. Even if you take the most sensational elements of Islam like stoning someone to death, very few Muslim countries practice that, so it's not ubiquitous. Or, if you call out something so common world-wide as anti-gay laws or behavior, it seems like you're consciously ignoring the billions of non-Muslims who live in governments or follow religions with active discrimination based on sexual orientation. Religions are so broad and open to interpretation that it's probably statistically impossible not to find anything you agree with (or disagree with) in a major religion. Instead, it sounds like there are specific human behaviors that don't sit well with you and that's totally understandable.