5 ms·

Yeah yeah lets abandon perfectly usable piece of technology because some john smith from the internet hates oracle.

sangnoir 9y ago
> Yeah yeah lets abandon perfectly usable piece of technology because some john smith from the internet hates oracle It's doesn't need to be hate, anyone concerned about the well-being of this industry should be wary of being an enabler/complicit. Oracle is actively malicious: remember this is the company that was actively trying to make API's copyrightable[1]. How many APIs do you use in a day do you think such a ruling would have impacted? You wouldn't be able to have drop-in replacement libraries (or web-services). Hell, it would have made it illegal to fork an open source project unless you got the copyright to the API as well. Given a viable choice between an Oracle project and a non-Oracle project, always go for the latter. [1]https://www.computerworld.com/article/2857293/legal/oracle-asks-supreme-court-to-reject-android-copyright-case.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2857293/legal/oracle-a... edit: changed to past tense: I had forgotten the supreme court refused the case, but that just means the argument hasn't been tested in the courts.
- carterehsmith 9y ago
  >> Given a viable choice between an Oracle project and a non-Oracle project, always go for the latter. Why? Consider VirtualBox, Java, and MySql. Did anyone get in trouble for using these?
  - TheDong 9y ago
    Google infamously got in a ton of trouble for using Java since oracle wanted a slice of that pie. There's a reason the MariaDB fork exists.
    - carterehsmith 9y ago
      >> Google infamously got in a ton of trouble for using Java since oracle wanted a slice of that pie. They sure did, by... being reckless, and possibly stupid. You can use OpenJDK (and bazillions people do), and noone will bother you. But if you get something trademarked "Java", and then change it to your liking, and you still call it "Java", and release it under trademarked name, then you do deserve the lawsuit & c.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Rightly so, after they pulled a Microsoft into Java. Now any Java developer writing libraries is forced to write Android specific versions thanks to how Google forked Java. No 100% support for all JVM bytecodes, so no invokedynamic support. Cherry picked packages and classes from Java 6, 7 and 8. It will only get worse with the current Java roadmap.
      - sangnoir 9y ago
        > Now any Java developer writing libraries is forced to write Android specific versions thanks to how Google forked Java. This is inaccurate. The Apache Project (Harmony) forked Java in the Sun days and Sun refused[1] to provide the compatibility tests (JCK) in order to prove that Harmony was Java. Google adopted the pre-forked Apache Harmony because Sun, in its brilliance, decided that J2ME and only J2ME was to be allowed on mobile. Incidentally, Oracle supported Apache Harmony before buying Sun, unsurprisingly Oracle changed their tune when they became custodians of Java and bribed/negotiated with IBM for IBM to recant its support for Harmony. 1. https://www.cnet.com/news/apache-grouses-about-java-compatibility-checker/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apache-grouses-about-java-compatib...
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Google the "Do no Evil" company, decided to scumm Sun as proven by Andy Rubin's emails instead of playing by the book like everyone else in the Java eco-system. Now every Java developer that wants to target Android needs to write Android Java, instead of pure Java.
        sangnoir 9y ago
        > Google the "Do no Evil" company, decided to scumm Sun... A jury looked at the evidence, heard the arguments, and disagreed with you. The decision held on appeal. An alternative interpretation of historical events: had Sun (and Oracle) provided Apache Harmony with the JCK from then, Harmony wouldn't have fallen behind.
        9y ago
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    > Why? Uhm, for the reasons I stated, that Oracle doesn't mind if our industry implodes in return of a $1bn API copyright payout. Is that the sort of attitude you want to reward with your mindshare? If the above concern isn't cogent to you, then perhaps their poor custodianship of other open source projects might convince you instead (Open Office and OpenSolaris).
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I am not able to use random Java library from Maven central in Android thanks Google. Thanks Google, only Java libraries written with Android Java in mind do actually work flawlessly in Android. Forcing many of us to have either two versions of a Java library or resort to a common subset. Yeah Google is not malicious at all.

> Yeah yeah lets abandon perfectly usable piece of technology because some john smith from the internet hates oracle It's doesn't need to be hate, anyone concerned about the well-being of this industry should be wary of being an enabler/complicit. Oracle is actively malicious: remember this is the company that was actively trying to make API's copyrightable[1]. How many APIs do you use in a day do you think such a ruling would have impacted? You wouldn't be able to have drop-in replacement libraries (or web-services). Hell, it would have made it illegal to fork an open source project unless you got the copyright to the API as well. Given a viable choice between an Oracle project and a non-Oracle project, always go for the latter. [1]https://www.computerworld.com/article/2857293/legal/oracle-asks-supreme-court-to-reject-android-copyright-case.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2857293/legal/oracle-a... edit: changed to past tense: I had forgotten the supreme court refused the case, but that just means the argument hasn't been tested in the courts.

carterehsmith 9y ago
>> Given a viable choice between an Oracle project and a non-Oracle project, always go for the latter. Why? Consider VirtualBox, Java, and MySql. Did anyone get in trouble for using these?
- TheDong 9y ago
  Google infamously got in a ton of trouble for using Java since oracle wanted a slice of that pie. There's a reason the MariaDB fork exists.
  - carterehsmith 9y ago
    >> Google infamously got in a ton of trouble for using Java since oracle wanted a slice of that pie. They sure did, by... being reckless, and possibly stupid. You can use OpenJDK (and bazillions people do), and noone will bother you. But if you get something trademarked "Java", and then change it to your liking, and you still call it "Java", and release it under trademarked name, then you do deserve the lawsuit & c.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Rightly so, after they pulled a Microsoft into Java. Now any Java developer writing libraries is forced to write Android specific versions thanks to how Google forked Java. No 100% support for all JVM bytecodes, so no invokedynamic support. Cherry picked packages and classes from Java 6, 7 and 8. It will only get worse with the current Java roadmap.
    - sangnoir 9y ago
      > Now any Java developer writing libraries is forced to write Android specific versions thanks to how Google forked Java. This is inaccurate. The Apache Project (Harmony) forked Java in the Sun days and Sun refused[1] to provide the compatibility tests (JCK) in order to prove that Harmony was Java. Google adopted the pre-forked Apache Harmony because Sun, in its brilliance, decided that J2ME and only J2ME was to be allowed on mobile. Incidentally, Oracle supported Apache Harmony before buying Sun, unsurprisingly Oracle changed their tune when they became custodians of Java and bribed/negotiated with IBM for IBM to recant its support for Harmony. 1. https://www.cnet.com/news/apache-grouses-about-java-compatibility-checker/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apache-grouses-about-java-compatib...
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Google the "Do no Evil" company, decided to scumm Sun as proven by Andy Rubin's emails instead of playing by the book like everyone else in the Java eco-system. Now every Java developer that wants to target Android needs to write Android Java, instead of pure Java.
        sangnoir 9y ago
        > Google the "Do no Evil" company, decided to scumm Sun... A jury looked at the evidence, heard the arguments, and disagreed with you. The decision held on appeal. An alternative interpretation of historical events: had Sun (and Oracle) provided Apache Harmony with the JCK from then, Harmony wouldn't have fallen behind.
        9y ago
- sangnoir 9y ago
  > Why? Uhm, for the reasons I stated, that Oracle doesn't mind if our industry implodes in return of a $1bn API copyright payout. Is that the sort of attitude you want to reward with your mindshare? If the above concern isn't cogent to you, then perhaps their poor custodianship of other open source projects might convince you instead (Open Office and OpenSolaris).
pjmlp 9y ago
I am not able to use random Java library from Maven central in Android thanks Google. Thanks Google, only Java libraries written with Android Java in mind do actually work flawlessly in Android. Forcing many of us to have either two versions of a Java library or resort to a common subset. Yeah Google is not malicious at all.