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I wish I would understand even a fraction of the stuff that's going on with software synths. Every couple of years I get this fancy idea of "I'd really like to

I wish I would understand even a fraction of the stuff that's going on with software synths. Every couple of years I get this fancy idea of "I'd really like to create some sounds/music", which usually ends up with me aimlessly manipulating digital knobs and switches on some massive UI, creating weird sounds with no real structure and changing all the default settings. The other option being something like FruityLoops, but doing anything in there kinda feels like making "Lego music" due to just slapping together samples. The closest I ever got to creating something like "music" was actually through a game, FRACT OSC, which I think is still really cool. But I guess for most professionals the toolset in there is just very basic and it also suffers from the same "Lego music" feel of just slapping together samples. Then there's stuff like SoundStage VR, which looks quite amazing to tinker around in, but due to a lack of VR setup, it's not something I had a chance to play around with yet. But the basic idea of making music in VR really appeals to me, it's just so cyberpunk and feels like it could be way more approachable, at least compared to something like software synths with their intimidating UI.

alexilliamson 9y ago
I get the same fancy idea every now and then. If anyone has been in the same place and gone on to really explore making synth music, I would love to hear it!
rainbowmverse 9y ago
A lot of synths are painfully unintuitive because they try (and fail) to replicate hardware synth interfaces. Try Helm (free and open source) or Serum (not free) and you might have more luck. Here's a rough crash course from someone who also struggled to get started: 1: You start out with a wave (sine, saw, pulse, etc). No synth starts out with a pure form of these waves. They all add a little color. Most synths have 2-5 oscillators (they produce the waves), often with each having different controls. 2: The filter constrains the sound. So, for example, if you wanted to make a bassy instrument, you'd filter out most of the high frequencies. The Attack, Sustain, Delay, and Release settings affect length and volume over time. This is what you use to turn waves into plucks, kicks, claps, strings, and anything else you can think of. 3: Most synths have at least 2 LFOs, or low frequency oscillators. You can connect these to different controls across the synth and change the timbre in weird, sometimes unpredictable and amazing ways. With Helm in particular, you click the little helmet by the LFO and drag the little bars on the different controls to change how much the LFO affects it. You'll see a little green bar pop out and move with the LFO. Serum has a separate tab with LFOs and routing to synth controls.
- privong 9y ago
  For the benefit of others, I wanted to note that what you're describing is subtractive synthesis where you shape sounds by subtracting (filtering) components from the initial waveform. Additive synthesis is also a technique, where you add many sine waves together (this is difficult/expensive to do in hardware and so doesn't seem to be widely used). There is also Frequency Modulation synthesis where a simple waveform is modulated using another wave at a close frequency. FM synthesizers were popular in the 80s, such as the Yamaha DX7.
  - soundwave106 9y ago
    In my opinion, though, subtractive synthesis is the easiest to "get". Starting with a relatively simple subtractive software synth that uses primitive "analog" waveforms -- like, say, Tal-Uno-62 (https://tal-software.com/products/tal-u-no-62 https://tal-software.com/products/tal-u-no-62) -- is probably the best way to play around with learning synthesis. It's a lot harder to create a "bad" sound in a simple subtractive synth, and in something like Tal-Uno-62, there aren't a whole lot of possibly confusing menu options and buttons. Samples and wavetable synthesis are also relatively easy to get a "good" sound of quickly. Most are structured, architecture wise like a subtractive synthesizer, you just replace the primitive waveform with either a sample, or a bank of digital waveforms. FM and additive (and spectral and granular) are neat techniques, but IMHO way more finicky to program. (They are also techniques where the software interface is quite welcome! Programming a DX sound in the (free and open source) Dexed VST is quite a bit easier to do than it is on a Yamaha DX7's two-line LCD screen and buttons.) For the parent poster: I understand that quite a few professionals, particularly in loop / beat oriented music genres (such as hip hop / trap, EDM, and reggaeton) use FL Studio quite a bit! The nice thing about FL Studio is that it has a nice intuitive layout for beat-making. It's what I'd personally recommend for someone just wanting to mess with synthesizer beats. (My personal favorite is Reaper but I don't tend to write beat oriented stuff. :) )
    - privong 9y ago
      > In my opinion, though, subtractive synthesis is the easiest to "get". Interesting, for me additive is the most intuitive. I find it easier to visualize sums of sine waves than subtracting harmonics from a more complex waveform (such as a sawtooth), particularly when considering the use of notch or bandpass filters. But that may have a lot to do with my education, which featured a heavy dose of Fourier Transforms and associated techniques.
kowdermeister 9y ago
I highly encourage you to watch this and P2 on synthesis. The concepts haven't changed since then. You will find the same things on all synths. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atvtBE6t48M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atvtBE6t48M Also, go ahead and try Propellerhead Reason (free to play with, you can save, but can't open saved files). It's the best one on the UX side. However I have to admit I'm using it for 10+ years now.
jedanbik 9y ago
This frustration is why Korg sold so many Minilogues last year. Check out this Minilogue review playlist by Marc Doty of Automatic Gainsay. You can see what's happening on the oscilloscope while he's explaining things. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGrtvdn2CyYwV6gxgiXvuaUORpSA650q https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGrtvdn2CyYwV6gxgiXv...
- ahultgren 9y ago
  Now i'm looking at ableton live wondering: where's an instrument/vst as simple as that thing? There are endless "instruments" with weird knobs and then there's effects and whatever. Is Live the wrong tool if i just want to create a nice sound and then record something and then put some tracks together?
_Marak_ 9y ago
I've been producing digital music since 2001. It took me three years of part-time tinkering to get something produced that remotely sounded like a song. It takes time to learn. FruityLoops is a great start to learn the basics of audio sequencing such as: tracks, beats, bars, measures, tempo, basic mixing and effects. Once you've mastered FruityLoops, I'd recommend switching to Cubase or Ableton Live. There are a lot of VST ( Virtual Instruments ) synths available for free which can offer a lot of unique tones ( not pre-sampled audio ). There are a lot of YouTube tutorials available now for all these tools, which can really help. Reddit also has a few good sized subreddits for digital music production and is a good place to get help or advice.
brynedwards 9y ago
I've been going through Syntorial[1] which is an interactive synth tutorial. I'm about half-way through and I've found it very useful for understanding not just what each part of a synthesizer does to the sound, but how it changes the sound. Later on, as you learn multiple functions of the synth, you practice combining them to recreate sounds. The software itself is a bit pricey and only runs on Mac or Windows but I've found it very helpful for getting an intuitive sense of what the different synth options actually change. 1. https://www.syntorial.com/ https://www.syntorial.com/
abhirag 9y ago
"I wish I would understand even a fraction of the stuff that's going on with software synths." -- May I suggest trying syntorial[https://www.syntorial.com/ https://www.syntorial.com/] If you want to create music without fiddling with UI you could also look into -- Sonic Pi[http://sonic-pi.net/ http://sonic-pi.net/] or Overtone[http://overtone.github.io/ http://overtone.github.io/]
- SomeHacker44 9y ago
  Syntorial, while not cheap, is an amazing tutorial.
- sgnl 9y ago
  I just started and Syntorial is amazing! The teacher is very talented and the App you use to learn (which he built with funding from a kickstarter) is very good. The demo comes with 22 lessons and I am a lot more confident with creating and re-creating sounds by ear in my DAW. I plan on purchasing it but I'm waiting for the "hey you haven't signed up yet so here's a discount" email to come because their marketing strategy is very familiar.
epicide 9y ago
I think part of it is that you're conflating writing music with sound design. They often go hand-in-hand but are two different skills. Kind of like programming vs (video) game design. For example, you don't have to design a flute in order to play one. Unlike synthesizers, most instruments can't change (much of) their sound. Organs are probably the most versatile in that regard, but they achieve it basically through brute force. (Traditional instruments do still have quite a bit of flexibility, but it's nothing when compared to a synthesizer; e.g. a violin is very versatile, but you can't suddenly make it sound like like a flute) For learning sound design, first pick a type of synthesis (as others have talked about). Most people start with subtractive synthesis and it is by far the most popular. So much so that bits of it overlap into other tools that focus on different forms of synthesis (e.g. lowpass filters as part of a wavetable synth). As for plugins, you can't go wrong with synth1. It's free, does more than what you'll need to start (you can just ignore knobs until you understand them), and has clear labels. Start with an initial patch (should be a basic sine wave IIRC) and build up from there. Learn what the different components actually do to the waveform. You can't think of it like "this makes the sound more like this" since how it changes the sound depends on the rest of the parameters. This is probably why you end up "aimlessly manipulating ... knobs and switches". For actually writing music (not just tweaking your bloop sounds), Ableton has a fantastic interactive guide [0] that takes you through everything you really need to make music. Everything else builds on top of that and is arguably unnecessary. It also includes great examples. There is also practically infinite information out there around writing music. Go get some. While focusing on writing actual music: don't be afraid of presets. There's nothing wrong with using them, especially if you are just learning. Nothing in music is 100% original. At the end of the day, all that matters is that it sounds good (and you're not blatantly copying others' work). You can start to use your own sounds once you learn more about actual synthesis. As you start to learn more synthesis, try finding a preset that is close to the sound you want and then tweak it to your liking. As far as DAWs, don't assume there is "one perfect DAW" for you. FL Studio might just not suit you. While all major DAWs should be able to achieve the same things, they often go about it differently. Depending heavily on how you want to work, some will be harder for you. You'll likely end up learning more than one eventually, so try out a few. Once you find one that starts to click, STOP SWITCHING. Stick to that one as long as you possibly can. REAPER [2] is a great option for beginners since it has very generous pricing and trial. However, it's not just a "beginner DAW" -- it is fully capable professional software. The key to making any progress learning is focus. [1]: https://learningmusic.ableton.com/ https://learningmusic.ableton.com/ [2]: https://www.reaper.fm/ https://www.reaper.fm/ Addendum: I mentioned learning what knobs do to the waveform, but I never explained how. There are plenty of options, but the most basic way that you can set that up right now for free is to grab REAPER, synth1, and some free oscilloscope plugin. This very basic setup will take you extremely far in learning synthesis.
scarecrowbob 9y ago
IMO, the "best" way to learn this stuff is to try and pick some specific synth, usually a subtractive synth with normal tools/controls and then try and create a bunch of "real"-ish sounds on it. For instance, the Roland Gaia is a good example... almost all its controls are knobs or sliders and there isn't a whole lot hidden in it. But there are similar software versions. And a synth like that is just a bunch of modules more or less hard-wired together. If you reset it and turn as much off as you can, it is much easier to get some insight into how these things work. When I was learning how to program a synth, I did a little of research on how to create a snare drum sound with a subtractive synth, and when I had that, I worked on creating a tom-tom, a bass drum, etc. Then I tried the same with a "horn" sound or a "string sound". That won't get you very far, but it's a lot more solid of an approach than just noodling. I like to mess around with stuff too, but it's easier to learn when I'm trying to do something intentional.
fractallyte 9y ago
Intuitive way to understand the concepts and terms behind (subtractive) synthesis: Your mouth and vocal tract! Open your mouth in a 'neutral' position and make a sound. That's an oscillator. Tensing your throat will change the waveform (on a synth that would be square, pulse, sawtooth). Purse and widen your lips, make a 'wow' sound: that's a low-pass filter (which cuts off higher sound frequencies). Make a 'shhh' sound: white noise. Purse your lips, make it sound like wind blowing: band-pass filter (which only lets certain frequencies through). Turn that wind noise into a whistle: now you're adding filter resonance. As that noise becomes a pure tone, the filter becomes self-oscillating. Add some vibrato to your sound (like an opera singer), or change the pitch (like a siren), and you're adding modulation. Doing this in a room, or large hall: now you're changing the reverb (reverberation). In a canyon with echoes: delay. Often, this is also a useful method to work out how to program a subtle or complicated patch (a sound preset on a synth, so named because early modular synths used telephone patch cables to make the necessary connections). Aside: I've often wondered what a human choir, making 'synthy' sounds, would be able to do with something like Jarre's classic Oxygène IV...
- freeflight 9y ago
  Thank you, that's already quite helpful! But how to end up with actual music/a melody doing this? Do you manipulate the sound live? Do you record different samples, made that way, and stick them together with a sequencer? Or do you switch between different, predefined, patches on the fly to kinda "play" it like an instrument? Sorry if these questions are basic, but this has always fascinated me with synth music: Creating beautiful melodies out of something that starts out pretty much just as "noise", it's kinda like magic.
  - romaniv 9y ago
    There are tons of different workflows to create electronic music. You can record sounds (and different instruments) linearly in layers. You can play a single keyboard set up in some clever way that allows you to trigger and control multiple virtual instruments at once (often with the help of arpeggiators or something like KARMA). You can use a looper. You can set up a step sequencer that plays notes in a loop while you manipulate both sounds and melody in some way in real-time. You can set up some gear to procedurally trigger sounds, which is what modular racks are often used for (look up "krell patch"). Or you can do several of these things at once, possibly in a group.

alexilliamson 9y ago

I get the same fancy idea every now and then. If anyone has been in the same place and gone on to really explore making synth music, I would love to hear it!

rainbowmverse 9y ago

A lot of synths are painfully unintuitive because they try (and fail) to replicate hardware synth interfaces. Try Helm (free and open source) or Serum (not free) and you might have more luck. Here's a rough crash course from someone who also struggled to get started: 1: You start out with a wave (sine, saw, pulse, etc). No synth starts out with a pure form of these waves. They all add a little color. Most synths have 2-5 oscillators (they produce the waves), often with each having different controls. 2: The filter constrains the sound. So, for example, if you wanted to make a bassy instrument, you'd filter out most of the high frequencies. The Attack, Sustain, Delay, and Release settings affect length and volume over time. This is what you use to turn waves into plucks, kicks, claps, strings, and anything else you can think of. 3: Most synths have at least 2 LFOs, or low frequency oscillators. You can connect these to different controls across the synth and change the timbre in weird, sometimes unpredictable and amazing ways. With Helm in particular, you click the little helmet by the LFO and drag the little bars on the different controls to change how much the LFO affects it. You'll see a little green bar pop out and move with the LFO. Serum has a separate tab with LFOs and routing to synth controls.

privong 9y ago
For the benefit of others, I wanted to note that what you're describing is subtractive synthesis where you shape sounds by subtracting (filtering) components from the initial waveform. Additive synthesis is also a technique, where you add many sine waves together (this is difficult/expensive to do in hardware and so doesn't seem to be widely used). There is also Frequency Modulation synthesis where a simple waveform is modulated using another wave at a close frequency. FM synthesizers were popular in the 80s, such as the Yamaha DX7.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  In my opinion, though, subtractive synthesis is the easiest to "get". Starting with a relatively simple subtractive software synth that uses primitive "analog" waveforms -- like, say, Tal-Uno-62 (https://tal-software.com/products/tal-u-no-62 https://tal-software.com/products/tal-u-no-62) -- is probably the best way to play around with learning synthesis. It's a lot harder to create a "bad" sound in a simple subtractive synth, and in something like Tal-Uno-62, there aren't a whole lot of possibly confusing menu options and buttons. Samples and wavetable synthesis are also relatively easy to get a "good" sound of quickly. Most are structured, architecture wise like a subtractive synthesizer, you just replace the primitive waveform with either a sample, or a bank of digital waveforms. FM and additive (and spectral and granular) are neat techniques, but IMHO way more finicky to program. (They are also techniques where the software interface is quite welcome! Programming a DX sound in the (free and open source) Dexed VST is quite a bit easier to do than it is on a Yamaha DX7's two-line LCD screen and buttons.) For the parent poster: I understand that quite a few professionals, particularly in loop / beat oriented music genres (such as hip hop / trap, EDM, and reggaeton) use FL Studio quite a bit! The nice thing about FL Studio is that it has a nice intuitive layout for beat-making. It's what I'd personally recommend for someone just wanting to mess with synthesizer beats. (My personal favorite is Reaper but I don't tend to write beat oriented stuff. :) )
  - privong 9y ago
    > In my opinion, though, subtractive synthesis is the easiest to "get". Interesting, for me additive is the most intuitive. I find it easier to visualize sums of sine waves than subtracting harmonics from a more complex waveform (such as a sawtooth), particularly when considering the use of notch or bandpass filters. But that may have a lot to do with my education, which featured a heavy dose of Fourier Transforms and associated techniques.

kowdermeister 9y ago

I highly encourage you to watch this and P2 on synthesis. The concepts haven't changed since then. You will find the same things on all synths. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atvtBE6t48M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atvtBE6t48M Also, go ahead and try Propellerhead Reason (free to play with, you can save, but can't open saved files). It's the best one on the UX side. However I have to admit I'm using it for 10+ years now.

jedanbik 9y ago

This frustration is why Korg sold so many Minilogues last year. Check out this Minilogue review playlist by Marc Doty of Automatic Gainsay. You can see what's happening on the oscilloscope while he's explaining things. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGrtvdn2CyYwV6gxgiXvuaUORpSA650q https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGrtvdn2CyYwV6gxgiXv...

ahultgren 9y ago
Now i'm looking at ableton live wondering: where's an instrument/vst as simple as that thing? There are endless "instruments" with weird knobs and then there's effects and whatever. Is Live the wrong tool if i just want to create a nice sound and then record something and then put some tracks together?

_Marak_ 9y ago

I've been producing digital music since 2001. It took me three years of part-time tinkering to get something produced that remotely sounded like a song. It takes time to learn. FruityLoops is a great start to learn the basics of audio sequencing such as: tracks, beats, bars, measures, tempo, basic mixing and effects. Once you've mastered FruityLoops, I'd recommend switching to Cubase or Ableton Live. There are a lot of VST ( Virtual Instruments ) synths available for free which can offer a lot of unique tones ( not pre-sampled audio ). There are a lot of YouTube tutorials available now for all these tools, which can really help. Reddit also has a few good sized subreddits for digital music production and is a good place to get help or advice.

brynedwards 9y ago

I've been going through Syntorial[1] which is an interactive synth tutorial. I'm about half-way through and I've found it very useful for understanding not just what each part of a synthesizer does to the sound, but how it changes the sound. Later on, as you learn multiple functions of the synth, you practice combining them to recreate sounds. The software itself is a bit pricey and only runs on Mac or Windows but I've found it very helpful for getting an intuitive sense of what the different synth options actually change. 1. https://www.syntorial.com/ https://www.syntorial.com/

abhirag 9y ago

"I wish I would understand even a fraction of the stuff that's going on with software synths." -- May I suggest trying syntorial[https://www.syntorial.com/ https://www.syntorial.com/] If you want to create music without fiddling with UI you could also look into -- Sonic Pi[http://sonic-pi.net/ http://sonic-pi.net/] or Overtone[http://overtone.github.io/ http://overtone.github.io/]

SomeHacker44 9y ago
Syntorial, while not cheap, is an amazing tutorial.
sgnl 9y ago
I just started and Syntorial is amazing! The teacher is very talented and the App you use to learn (which he built with funding from a kickstarter) is very good. The demo comes with 22 lessons and I am a lot more confident with creating and re-creating sounds by ear in my DAW. I plan on purchasing it but I'm waiting for the "hey you haven't signed up yet so here's a discount" email to come because their marketing strategy is very familiar.

epicide 9y ago

I think part of it is that you're conflating writing music with sound design. They often go hand-in-hand but are two different skills. Kind of like programming vs (video) game design. For example, you don't have to design a flute in order to play one. Unlike synthesizers, most instruments can't change (much of) their sound. Organs are probably the most versatile in that regard, but they achieve it basically through brute force. (Traditional instruments do still have quite a bit of flexibility, but it's nothing when compared to a synthesizer; e.g. a violin is very versatile, but you can't suddenly make it sound like like a flute) For learning sound design, first pick a type of synthesis (as others have talked about). Most people start with subtractive synthesis and it is by far the most popular. So much so that bits of it overlap into other tools that focus on different forms of synthesis (e.g. lowpass filters as part of a wavetable synth). As for plugins, you can't go wrong with synth1. It's free, does more than what you'll need to start (you can just ignore knobs until you understand them), and has clear labels. Start with an initial patch (should be a basic sine wave IIRC) and build up from there. Learn what the different components actually do to the waveform. You can't think of it like "this makes the sound more like this" since how it changes the sound depends on the rest of the parameters. This is probably why you end up "aimlessly manipulating ... knobs and switches". For actually writing music (not just tweaking your bloop sounds), Ableton has a fantastic interactive guide [0] that takes you through everything you really need to make music. Everything else builds on top of that and is arguably unnecessary. It also includes great examples. There is also practically infinite information out there around writing music. Go get some. While focusing on writing actual music: don't be afraid of presets. There's nothing wrong with using them, especially if you are just learning. Nothing in music is 100% original. At the end of the day, all that matters is that it sounds good (and you're not blatantly copying others' work). You can start to use your own sounds once you learn more about actual synthesis. As you start to learn more synthesis, try finding a preset that is close to the sound you want and then tweak it to your liking. As far as DAWs, don't assume there is "one perfect DAW" for you. FL Studio might just not suit you. While all major DAWs should be able to achieve the same things, they often go about it differently. Depending heavily on how you want to work, some will be harder for you. You'll likely end up learning more than one eventually, so try out a few. Once you find one that starts to click, STOP SWITCHING. Stick to that one as long as you possibly can. REAPER [2] is a great option for beginners since it has very generous pricing and trial. However, it's not just a "beginner DAW" -- it is fully capable professional software. The key to making any progress learning is focus. [1]: https://learningmusic.ableton.com/ https://learningmusic.ableton.com/ [2]: https://www.reaper.fm/ https://www.reaper.fm/ Addendum: I mentioned learning what knobs do to the waveform, but I never explained how. There are plenty of options, but the most basic way that you can set that up right now for free is to grab REAPER, synth1, and some free oscilloscope plugin. This very basic setup will take you extremely far in learning synthesis.

scarecrowbob 9y ago

IMO, the "best" way to learn this stuff is to try and pick some specific synth, usually a subtractive synth with normal tools/controls and then try and create a bunch of "real"-ish sounds on it. For instance, the Roland Gaia is a good example... almost all its controls are knobs or sliders and there isn't a whole lot hidden in it. But there are similar software versions. And a synth like that is just a bunch of modules more or less hard-wired together. If you reset it and turn as much off as you can, it is much easier to get some insight into how these things work. When I was learning how to program a synth, I did a little of research on how to create a snare drum sound with a subtractive synth, and when I had that, I worked on creating a tom-tom, a bass drum, etc. Then I tried the same with a "horn" sound or a "string sound". That won't get you very far, but it's a lot more solid of an approach than just noodling. I like to mess around with stuff too, but it's easier to learn when I'm trying to do something intentional.

fractallyte 9y ago

Intuitive way to understand the concepts and terms behind (subtractive) synthesis: Your mouth and vocal tract! Open your mouth in a 'neutral' position and make a sound. That's an oscillator. Tensing your throat will change the waveform (on a synth that would be square, pulse, sawtooth). Purse and widen your lips, make a 'wow' sound: that's a low-pass filter (which cuts off higher sound frequencies). Make a 'shhh' sound: white noise. Purse your lips, make it sound like wind blowing: band-pass filter (which only lets certain frequencies through). Turn that wind noise into a whistle: now you're adding filter resonance. As that noise becomes a pure tone, the filter becomes self-oscillating. Add some vibrato to your sound (like an opera singer), or change the pitch (like a siren), and you're adding modulation. Doing this in a room, or large hall: now you're changing the reverb (reverberation). In a canyon with echoes: delay. Often, this is also a useful method to work out how to program a subtle or complicated patch (a sound preset on a synth, so named because early modular synths used telephone patch cables to make the necessary connections). Aside: I've often wondered what a human choir, making 'synthy' sounds, would be able to do with something like Jarre's classic Oxygène IV...

freeflight 9y ago
Thank you, that's already quite helpful! But how to end up with actual music/a melody doing this? Do you manipulate the sound live? Do you record different samples, made that way, and stick them together with a sequencer? Or do you switch between different, predefined, patches on the fly to kinda "play" it like an instrument? Sorry if these questions are basic, but this has always fascinated me with synth music: Creating beautiful melodies out of something that starts out pretty much just as "noise", it's kinda like magic.
- romaniv 9y ago
  There are tons of different workflows to create electronic music. You can record sounds (and different instruments) linearly in layers. You can play a single keyboard set up in some clever way that allows you to trigger and control multiple virtual instruments at once (often with the help of arpeggiators or something like KARMA). You can use a looper. You can set up a step sequencer that plays notes in a loop while you manipulate both sounds and melody in some way in real-time. You can set up some gear to procedurally trigger sounds, which is what modular racks are often used for (look up "krell patch"). Or you can do several of these things at once, possibly in a group.