4 ms·

> we've had enough of that shit here 70 years ago. you had a military dictatorship. it couldn't be opposed or contested by anyone, because you and/or your fam

by abiox 9y ago

> we've had enough of that shit here 70 years ago. you had a military dictatorship. it couldn't be opposed or contested by anyone, because you and/or your family would just be killed. german citizens couldn't stop the killing any more than russians could stop millions from being killed. that was the fundamental problem. dictators do as they please. criminalizing the speech of random bob under a democratic government isn't doing much of anything, and these laws mean nothing to a dictator. what actually matters is having a democratic government that is beholden to the citizenry. if anything this speech criminalization is a theater of sorts that makes you less safe.

Grollicus 9y ago
What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust. Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing. My grandparents' generation chose to actively look away because they thought it won't get "that bad". They might have told themselfes they didn't know better - you know, afterwards - but you can't remove 6 million people out of a country of maybe 60 million and no one notices shit. Well, it did get bad, and then some. We know that now, we can now look back and see how it began. It began with social insecurity and propaganda (populism). We can't fight social insecurity but we can fight propaganda and that is why we have § 130 Volksverhetzung.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > They might have told themselfes they didn't know better - you know, afterwards - but you can't remove 6 million people out of a country of maybe 60 million and no one notices shit. Removal from the general population was an overt policy (and overtly not all that different than what the Western allies did with suspect populations identified by ethnicity.) The actual conditions to which Jews and others were removed, even prior to the implementation of extermination, was not overt. No one was trying to conceal the removal of disfavored segments from the general population.
  - Grollicus 9y ago
    > The actual conditions to which Jews and others were removed, even prior to the implementation of extermination, was not overt. That is not correct. Most Jews in Germany were sent to work camps and used as slave labour for local factories. Check out this response: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3mnglz/did_the_germans_who_lived_near_concentration/cvh66l4/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3mnglz/did_t... Generally Germany knew, or at least had an idea that something was wrong. Everyone who tells you differently is selling you an agenda.
- abiox 9y ago
  > What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust. i'm honestly not even sure what this means. could you rephrase? > Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing. sure. they usually seize power, though not always. and they tend to follow some kind of instability. after ww1 germany was in terrible shape. blockades during the war contributed to hunderds of thousands of people starving to death. the economy was in the gutter, inflation was out of control - before they got it under control 1 us dollar was equal to 4 trillion german marks. there was violence in the streets between political parties. the reichstag fire. concentration camps started with political opponents. the night of long knives was all about murdering political opponents and even allies who were deemed too influential and thus a risk. being so absurdly reductive to just say 'hate speech' is primarily or even secondarily responsible for the formation of military dictatorships seems almost insulting. it's theater, an appeasement of sensibilities that leaves people more vulnerable to repeating the past than rational assessment of history.

by abiox 9y ago

Grollicus 9y ago

What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust. Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing. My grandparents' generation chose to actively look away because they thought it won't get "that bad". They might have told themselfes they didn't know better - you know, afterwards - but you can't remove 6 million people out of a country of maybe 60 million and no one notices shit. Well, it did get bad, and then some. We know that now, we can now look back and see how it began. It began with social insecurity and propaganda (populism). We can't fight social insecurity but we can fight propaganda and that is why we have § 130 Volksverhetzung.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> They might have told themselfes they didn't know better - you know, afterwards - but you can't remove 6 million people out of a country of maybe 60 million and no one notices shit. Removal from the general population was an overt policy (and overtly not all that different than what the Western allies did with suspect populations identified by ethnicity.) The actual conditions to which Jews and others were removed, even prior to the implementation of extermination, was not overt. No one was trying to conceal the removal of disfavored segments from the general population.
- Grollicus 9y ago
  > The actual conditions to which Jews and others were removed, even prior to the implementation of extermination, was not overt. That is not correct. Most Jews in Germany were sent to work camps and used as slave labour for local factories. Check out this response: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3mnglz/did_the_germans_who_lived_near_concentration/cvh66l4/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3mnglz/did_t... Generally Germany knew, or at least had an idea that something was wrong. Everyone who tells you differently is selling you an agenda.
abiox 9y ago
> What you are writing here is a dangerous thing because it relativizes the holocaust. i'm honestly not even sure what this means. could you rephrase? > Military Dictatorships don't suddenly appear out of nothing. sure. they usually seize power, though not always. and they tend to follow some kind of instability. after ww1 germany was in terrible shape. blockades during the war contributed to hunderds of thousands of people starving to death. the economy was in the gutter, inflation was out of control - before they got it under control 1 us dollar was equal to 4 trillion german marks. there was violence in the streets between political parties. the reichstag fire. concentration camps started with political opponents. the night of long knives was all about murdering political opponents and even allies who were deemed too influential and thus a risk. being so absurdly reductive to just say 'hate speech' is primarily or even secondarily responsible for the formation of military dictatorships seems almost insulting. it's theater, an appeasement of sensibilities that leaves people more vulnerable to repeating the past than rational assessment of history.