7 ms·

Theere's obviously a lot of parasitic business "idea guys" who don't know about technology this article is talking about. At the same time, there's a lot of bu

by il 16y ago

Theere's obviously a lot of parasitic business "idea guys" who don't know about technology this article is talking about. At the same time, there's a lot of business guys who can bring real, tangible value in terms of strategy, customer acquisition methods, marketing, finances, etc. I think there'a huge misconception that all it takes to build a company is a couple hackers who can build a product. Building the product is NOT the hard part(except the rare case where there are real technical challenges). Building a business is the hard part. If you really think about it, most startups don't fail because their code isn't good enough. They fail because the founders are absorbed in engineering and neglect the business parts like marketing, monetizing, and so on. I'm kind of on both sides, as a hacker who's better at the business/marketing elements, so I have perspective into attitudes on both sides. I may be taking a risk making this comment on Hacker News, but I think in some places, it's actually coders who are a dime a dozen. People who can actually build and grow a business are much harder to find.

kranner 16y ago
I live in India and from my perspective, everybody is a dime a dozen, until they think hard and work hard to distinguish themselves.
- klbarry 16y ago
  Even in NYC, this is true. The majority of coders are not the mythical hackers of the valley, just as most businessmen aren't amazing. Just partner with people who work hard and are great, as there's enough work to go around in a start-up.
  - kranner 16y ago
    Sure but, to clarify, by India I meant the sheer population figures of any occupation or other demographic. It's true everywhere if you're competing online, but here we're used to physically seeing it.
  - sandipagr 16y ago
    I dont understand why coders have to be mythical hackers. Isn't all it matters is if you can get the shit done? The reason I am saying this is cause lot of times there are comments that for some reason give "hackers" a higher credibility when coders and hackers are essentially same here. Of course there are projects that require real hacking to complete the job, but most of the times a normal coder can do it as well. Maybe I don't understand the difference.
    - extension 16y ago
      Software development is hard enough that you have to be a mythical hacker just to get shit done. At least, any but the most mundane cookie cutter shit, which is not what startups make.
jpcx01 16y ago
I completely agree here. I learned long ago that if I built something that I thought was cool, it didn't turn to dollars. The best hackers absolutely need to find a great business partner. Unless they can wing it on their own. But personally, I hated the doing all the BS it takes to bring a product to market. I just want to build cool shit.
- il 16y ago
  That's why a business guy and a hacker is the best team. I love creating new marketing strategies, building campaigns, writing sales copy and doing customer development. But writing code bores me...I hate slogging through coding and debugging whenever I have to do it.
  - jlees 16y ago
    il, I'm the same, but I think it helps to at least be on that side of the fence - a hacker turned to the dark side - than be the proverbial "Here are my mockups in PowerPoint, now build me a website" clueless/exploitative 'business guy'.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      If you hate coding you're not a "hacker", in the same way that I am not a vegetarian just because I eat salad before my dinner. We both do it because we "have to".
- kranner 16y ago
  I used to think marketing was BS too, but I've come to think it's just a different sort of hacking.
mlinsey 16y ago
Building a business requires quick iteration on ideas. Quick iteration requires building products quickly. One of the qualities that separates good and bad hackers is speed. Not many startups fail because their code isn't good enough, but many startups fail because they run out of time to find the right product because they haven't been executing quickly enough. Lots of those startups might have been saved by better hackers. My point is that you are right to say that building a business is the hardest part, but you are wrong to suggest that "building the business" is something separate from "building the product", or that success in the former does not crucially depend on the latter.
- jlees 16y ago
  Look at some of the customer development stuff that's come up recently, though; I've seen companies with very very little actual code/product (in some cases, none!) iterate extremely quickly through wizard-of-oz smokescreens and the like. I agree that fast execution and the ability to turn around and change what you've done (some hackers I know are very change-resistant, note) is important - that's why my last startup didn't do as well as it could. But a lot of that could have been saved with more customer-development methods as well as faster, better code.
euroclydon 16y ago
Building and growing a business often require that a person be able to go without making any money for a quite a while, so by definition, these people are rare. I don't think people with the talent to grow a business are that rare, but people with the talent and a conducive life situation are. And actually, even building a technically mundane product is quite hard, but more for the same reasons building a business is. It's a prototype that's easy to build, but buckling down to cross all the t's and dot the i's, and perform the boring work to make it a real product takes perseverance.
- hungh3 16y ago
  absolutely agree. I think your take on the "conducive life situation" is cool.
cheald 16y ago
I think the takeaway is that "Good business partners are hard to find, and good tech partners are hard to find. Bad partners of either variety are plentiful." Hackers tend to notice the plethora of bad business types, because we're bombarded by them. Business founders tend to notice the lack of good tech co-founders because all their experience is with bad ones. However, we can observe that there are startups with good ideas, good business partners, and good tech partners. They're out there. If you're a tech or business type and are looking for a co-founder, but can't find one, consider that perhaps the problem is that you aren't compelling enough to attract the right kind of co-founder. Make sure you're bringing all you can to the table, and you'll find someone to do it with you.

by il 16y ago

kranner 16y ago

I live in India and from my perspective, everybody is a dime a dozen, until they think hard and work hard to distinguish themselves.

klbarry 16y ago
Even in NYC, this is true. The majority of coders are not the mythical hackers of the valley, just as most businessmen aren't amazing. Just partner with people who work hard and are great, as there's enough work to go around in a start-up.
- kranner 16y ago
  Sure but, to clarify, by India I meant the sheer population figures of any occupation or other demographic. It's true everywhere if you're competing online, but here we're used to physically seeing it.
- sandipagr 16y ago
  I dont understand why coders have to be mythical hackers. Isn't all it matters is if you can get the shit done? The reason I am saying this is cause lot of times there are comments that for some reason give "hackers" a higher credibility when coders and hackers are essentially same here. Of course there are projects that require real hacking to complete the job, but most of the times a normal coder can do it as well. Maybe I don't understand the difference.
  - extension 16y ago
    Software development is hard enough that you have to be a mythical hacker just to get shit done. At least, any but the most mundane cookie cutter shit, which is not what startups make.

jpcx01 16y ago

I completely agree here. I learned long ago that if I built something that I thought was cool, it didn't turn to dollars. The best hackers absolutely need to find a great business partner. Unless they can wing it on their own. But personally, I hated the doing all the BS it takes to bring a product to market. I just want to build cool shit.

il 16y ago
That's why a business guy and a hacker is the best team. I love creating new marketing strategies, building campaigns, writing sales copy and doing customer development. But writing code bores me...I hate slogging through coding and debugging whenever I have to do it.
- jlees 16y ago
  il, I'm the same, but I think it helps to at least be on that side of the fence - a hacker turned to the dark side - than be the proverbial "Here are my mockups in PowerPoint, now build me a website" clueless/exploitative 'business guy'.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    If you hate coding you're not a "hacker", in the same way that I am not a vegetarian just because I eat salad before my dinner. We both do it because we "have to".
kranner 16y ago
I used to think marketing was BS too, but I've come to think it's just a different sort of hacking.

mlinsey 16y ago

Building a business requires quick iteration on ideas. Quick iteration requires building products quickly. One of the qualities that separates good and bad hackers is speed. Not many startups fail because their code isn't good enough, but many startups fail because they run out of time to find the right product because they haven't been executing quickly enough. Lots of those startups might have been saved by better hackers. My point is that you are right to say that building a business is the hardest part, but you are wrong to suggest that "building the business" is something separate from "building the product", or that success in the former does not crucially depend on the latter.

jlees 16y ago
Look at some of the customer development stuff that's come up recently, though; I've seen companies with very very little actual code/product (in some cases, none!) iterate extremely quickly through wizard-of-oz smokescreens and the like. I agree that fast execution and the ability to turn around and change what you've done (some hackers I know are very change-resistant, note) is important - that's why my last startup didn't do as well as it could. But a lot of that could have been saved with more customer-development methods as well as faster, better code.

euroclydon 16y ago

Building and growing a business often require that a person be able to go without making any money for a quite a while, so by definition, these people are rare. I don't think people with the talent to grow a business are that rare, but people with the talent and a conducive life situation are. And actually, even building a technically mundane product is quite hard, but more for the same reasons building a business is. It's a prototype that's easy to build, but buckling down to cross all the t's and dot the i's, and perform the boring work to make it a real product takes perseverance.

hungh3 16y ago
absolutely agree. I think your take on the "conducive life situation" is cool.

cheald 16y ago

I think the takeaway is that "Good business partners are hard to find, and good tech partners are hard to find. Bad partners of either variety are plentiful." Hackers tend to notice the plethora of bad business types, because we're bombarded by them. Business founders tend to notice the lack of good tech co-founders because all their experience is with bad ones. However, we can observe that there are startups with good ideas, good business partners, and good tech partners. They're out there. If you're a tech or business type and are looking for a co-founder, but can't find one, consider that perhaps the problem is that you aren't compelling enough to attract the right kind of co-founder. Make sure you're bringing all you can to the table, and you'll find someone to do it with you.