5 ms·

Step 1. Be valuable Step 2. Ask for your value Step 3. Walk if you don't get it

by zepolen 9y ago

cema 9y ago
Step 2 is not easy for everyone, plenty of people in our profession are shy. Step 3 is a big one, too.
- zepolen 9y ago
  That's why all 3 steps are necessary, I know plenty of people who fill step 1 and step 3 but never do step 2 - so they just end up leaving instead of getting a raise.
  - cema 9y ago
    Right. Well, sometimes leaving is good -- for instance, when the new company is so exciting, or when the old one, uh, isn't.
- switch007 9y ago
  Step 0: go to interviews? to aid step 2 and 3?
mgkimsal 9y ago
Knowing your "value" is arguably the toughest one, because for many people, it's hard to quantify.
- zepolen 9y ago
  It's easy to quantify - look for another job - if you're getting offers for a certain salary - that's your minimum value. Now ask for more. When the offers stop, you've found your value. Likewise - you are more valuable to your current company as you have domain knowledge whereas a new hire will require training, keep that in mind.
- paulcole 9y ago
  It's really the easiest! If you don't have any alternative and aren't willing to quit, your value is what you're getting paid currently. You can bluff your way to a higher value but without leverage (other offer, willingness to walk) that's all it is-- a bluff that might or might not be called.
  - alexbeloi 9y ago
    Your value is what you earn for your company. The difference between your value and your compensation is the surplus value the company collects from your labor. The company's goal is to maximize aggregate surplus value. Salary and wage based negotiation is a zero sum game until you add commissions, stock options, profit sharing.
    - saint_fiasco 9y ago
      If you don't have alternative offers, your cost is probably very close to your value. Otherwise a competitor could offer you a higher salary and still collect a little surplus value.
      - alexbeloi 9y ago
        In tech, when your employer hires you as an engineer, they hope they're getting 10x your cost back in value each year, at a minimum a startup needs to get 2x return to cover debt obligations with growth, on average they get 3-5x. You can get a rough estimate (with profit or earnings as a proxy for capital growth) by looking up a company's (or sector's) profit per employee. These are averages and not reflective of engineering roles. Walmart: ~5-6k profit per employee (Q3) Exxon: 176k profit per employee (Q3) Facebook[0]: 1.7M profit per employee (Q3) Apple: 522k profit per employee (Q3) Internet Services & Social Media sector average: 497k profit per employee Internet Services & Social Media sector average: 2.1M revenue per employee A competitor can/should/will try to steal you from your current employer with a higher compensation if they can extract good surplus value from you, relative to anyone else. The last part (relative to anyone else) is the crux of the situation, everyone selling their labor is doing so at a massive discount because of the competition in the labor pool. You can't actually demand anything close to your value because somebody else will undercut you. The people/firms that can demand the highest percentage of their value as compensation are those with the most unique skills, those for whom few alternatives in the pool exist. [0] https://csimarket.com/stocks/FB-Efficiency-Comparisons.html https://csimarket.com/stocks/FB-Efficiency-Comparisons.html
optimuspaul 9y ago
I think all of those are difficult for anyone. walking away is a huge risk especially if you screw up on 1 & 2. Knowing your value is very hard to do. But the one nobody has called out, which I think is the hardest, is number 1. Knowing what your employer finds valuable is a difficult proposition. And in a lot of cases the line between value and liability is thin and nondeterministic.
- joncrane 9y ago
  Part of knowing your value is to occasionally respond to recruiters on LinkedIn and go on interviews. It's good practice anyways, even if you're happy in your job.
  - bdamm 9y ago
    Some of the best advice I ever got was to do interviews even if you don't think you'll get the job, or even just for practice. It's like going to the doctor; you just have to go do it sometimes, and it can be surprisingly good long-term.
- athenot 9y ago
  > Knowing what your employer finds valuable is a difficult proposition Yes. But you probably have an idea how to reduce the number of headaches for your manager, and how to make him or her look better in front of that person's own manager. You may go unrecognized for a while be keep doing it because eventually you'll be that person that your manager really doesn't want to loose. That's value.
  - optimuspaul 9y ago
    While I tend to agree if you are going unrecognized and your manager is inept there is a good chance that you are not being seen as valuable to the company and therefore missing #1. That is why I think it is a difficult one. I have also seen the opposite problem though where an employee felt they were providing tons of value and their managers felt the same way, but their peers and other teams found them to be a burden. When that employee left the company there was a bump in productivity and general happiness on many teams. In the end they were providing the wrong things and the value they thought they were providing was actually a deficit. That could be an edge case, but does illustrate that it's not easy to merely make yourself valuable. You must also prove that the value you think you are providing is actual value.
sergers 9y ago
My company dangled the carrot. The job became so mundane that I wrote my own tools to do alot of repetitive tasks. I understood my value, as I was doing 80% of the team's work first year. 2nd year, I procrastinated, put in 50% effort, still outperformed my team mates. There were "senior" members that I quadrupled output. I am probably overqualified for my role. I asked for raise, as I'm undervalued of what I can do. I was a lil cocky, but true, that I coasted and still outperformed everyone. I gave them 3 months to show they value me, as I had offers from other teams and a bunch of people were leaving to other local companies. I said all the thanks, kudos, awards, and even titles are meaningless. I want to get paid, that's all that matters. The more I get paid, the more I am willing to do. Took 3.5 months, they gave me a raise and a promotion doing slightly different things so not so borinh
- w0rd-driven 9y ago
  > 2nd year, I procrastinated, put in 50% effort, still outperformed my team mates. This echoes my response when I feel undervalued. The first year I give at least 100% to assess my impact compared to my peers. If I'm leaps and bounds ahead I dial it back _significantly_ until I just barely exceed the expectations set for other people. If they can be there for x years working at such a slow pace, I don't need to make them look considerably worse, especially if my compensation below market rate. Just for reference, so far I've yet to make market rate for a base salary. Things like working from home on Fridays are a perk that does have a monetary and mental value but perks rarely put food on the table by themselves. In an ideal situation, companies would be able to spot your max performance, watch it decline and immediately work with you to rectify it. Maybe you picked up a new meth habit but chances are if you're like us, you're merely adjusting your output to match their perceived monetary input (however truthful that may be). This is not to say that I don't work with my peers to try to enhance their productivity levels. I don't feel I'm a unicorn by any means, I'm just really good at being really lazy and awkwardly enough using proper tooling means I can be both lazy and extremely productive at the same time.
barleymash 9y ago
The difficult scenario is if you really enjoy your job. I work at a company that I have almost nothing to complain about... flexible, great benefits, no micromanagement, challenging and stimulating work. However, I do feel that I am slightly underpaid. It is hard to _really_ know what the environment would be like at a new company if I was willing to walk. I guess the hard thing (for me) is quantifying the importance of the other factors besides money.
- Benjammer 9y ago
  >It is hard to _really_ know what the environment would be like at a new company if I was willing to walk You should seriously consider interviewing at other companies, where you should directly ask your interviewers questions about these topics, explain why you value them in your current role, and ask how this new company handles the same things. You can find stimulating work at a lot of places if you look hard enough...
- frandroid 9y ago
  That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never threaten to walk out on a job like that. This is where the article's advice is more useful than the commenters' :)
  - BeetleB 9y ago
    >That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never threaten to walk out on a job like that. I used to think that way, but in general, the situation will change. You can have a this awesome job for N years, and then management can change and you'll be miserable. I think it's always better to be in a position where you know you can easily move if things go south. If your current awesome job is also making you grow, then great! If, however, it's too comfortable and you cannot differentiate yourself well, you will not be able to move easily once things go south.
    - frandroid 9y ago
      "If I change the input in your equation, the result changes" !!
anonemouse145 9y ago
Disregard down votes, this is 100% correct. I only add: Read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect. Realize smart people undervalue themselves, and dumb people overvalue themselves. Remember that if only dumb people ask for a promotion, one of them gets it. If you're a good employee, always shoot a little above your worth to compensate. People are whining that it's hard to know your value, that people are timid, and many people can't walk. I agree, and that's why they're underpaid. It's not your boss's fault if you're uninformed, timid, or scared to ask for a raise. Do what you need to do to improve your bargaining position. Then leverage it. Thr vast majority of the supposed "wage gap" is that men feel compelled to climb the hierarchy. They take more risks asking for raises and positions- even if they aren't qualified, and even at the expense of work life balance. You can do that too, if you want the money. Emphasis on if.

Step 1. Be valuable Step 2. Ask for your value Step 3. Walk if you don't get it

cema 9y ago

Step 2 is not easy for everyone, plenty of people in our profession are shy. Step 3 is a big one, too.

zepolen 9y ago
That's why all 3 steps are necessary, I know plenty of people who fill step 1 and step 3 but never do step 2 - so they just end up leaving instead of getting a raise.
- cema 9y ago
  Right. Well, sometimes leaving is good -- for instance, when the new company is so exciting, or when the old one, uh, isn't.
switch007 9y ago
Step 0: go to interviews? to aid step 2 and 3?

mgkimsal 9y ago

Knowing your "value" is arguably the toughest one, because for many people, it's hard to quantify.

zepolen 9y ago
It's easy to quantify - look for another job - if you're getting offers for a certain salary - that's your minimum value. Now ask for more. When the offers stop, you've found your value. Likewise - you are more valuable to your current company as you have domain knowledge whereas a new hire will require training, keep that in mind.
paulcole 9y ago
It's really the easiest! If you don't have any alternative and aren't willing to quit, your value is what you're getting paid currently. You can bluff your way to a higher value but without leverage (other offer, willingness to walk) that's all it is-- a bluff that might or might not be called.
- alexbeloi 9y ago
  Your value is what you earn for your company. The difference between your value and your compensation is the surplus value the company collects from your labor. The company's goal is to maximize aggregate surplus value. Salary and wage based negotiation is a zero sum game until you add commissions, stock options, profit sharing.
  - saint_fiasco 9y ago
    If you don't have alternative offers, your cost is probably very close to your value. Otherwise a competitor could offer you a higher salary and still collect a little surplus value.
    - alexbeloi 9y ago
      In tech, when your employer hires you as an engineer, they hope they're getting 10x your cost back in value each year, at a minimum a startup needs to get 2x return to cover debt obligations with growth, on average they get 3-5x. You can get a rough estimate (with profit or earnings as a proxy for capital growth) by looking up a company's (or sector's) profit per employee. These are averages and not reflective of engineering roles. Walmart: ~5-6k profit per employee (Q3) Exxon: 176k profit per employee (Q3) Facebook[0]: 1.7M profit per employee (Q3) Apple: 522k profit per employee (Q3) Internet Services & Social Media sector average: 497k profit per employee Internet Services & Social Media sector average: 2.1M revenue per employee A competitor can/should/will try to steal you from your current employer with a higher compensation if they can extract good surplus value from you, relative to anyone else. The last part (relative to anyone else) is the crux of the situation, everyone selling their labor is doing so at a massive discount because of the competition in the labor pool. You can't actually demand anything close to your value because somebody else will undercut you. The people/firms that can demand the highest percentage of their value as compensation are those with the most unique skills, those for whom few alternatives in the pool exist. [0] https://csimarket.com/stocks/FB-Efficiency-Comparisons.html https://csimarket.com/stocks/FB-Efficiency-Comparisons.html

optimuspaul 9y ago

I think all of those are difficult for anyone. walking away is a huge risk especially if you screw up on 1 & 2. Knowing your value is very hard to do. But the one nobody has called out, which I think is the hardest, is number 1. Knowing what your employer finds valuable is a difficult proposition. And in a lot of cases the line between value and liability is thin and nondeterministic.

joncrane 9y ago
Part of knowing your value is to occasionally respond to recruiters on LinkedIn and go on interviews. It's good practice anyways, even if you're happy in your job.
- bdamm 9y ago
  Some of the best advice I ever got was to do interviews even if you don't think you'll get the job, or even just for practice. It's like going to the doctor; you just have to go do it sometimes, and it can be surprisingly good long-term.
athenot 9y ago
> Knowing what your employer finds valuable is a difficult proposition Yes. But you probably have an idea how to reduce the number of headaches for your manager, and how to make him or her look better in front of that person's own manager. You may go unrecognized for a while be keep doing it because eventually you'll be that person that your manager really doesn't want to loose. That's value.
- optimuspaul 9y ago
  While I tend to agree if you are going unrecognized and your manager is inept there is a good chance that you are not being seen as valuable to the company and therefore missing #1. That is why I think it is a difficult one. I have also seen the opposite problem though where an employee felt they were providing tons of value and their managers felt the same way, but their peers and other teams found them to be a burden. When that employee left the company there was a bump in productivity and general happiness on many teams. In the end they were providing the wrong things and the value they thought they were providing was actually a deficit. That could be an edge case, but does illustrate that it's not easy to merely make yourself valuable. You must also prove that the value you think you are providing is actual value.

sergers 9y ago

My company dangled the carrot. The job became so mundane that I wrote my own tools to do alot of repetitive tasks. I understood my value, as I was doing 80% of the team's work first year. 2nd year, I procrastinated, put in 50% effort, still outperformed my team mates. There were "senior" members that I quadrupled output. I am probably overqualified for my role. I asked for raise, as I'm undervalued of what I can do. I was a lil cocky, but true, that I coasted and still outperformed everyone. I gave them 3 months to show they value me, as I had offers from other teams and a bunch of people were leaving to other local companies. I said all the thanks, kudos, awards, and even titles are meaningless. I want to get paid, that's all that matters. The more I get paid, the more I am willing to do. Took 3.5 months, they gave me a raise and a promotion doing slightly different things so not so borinh

w0rd-driven 9y ago
> 2nd year, I procrastinated, put in 50% effort, still outperformed my team mates. This echoes my response when I feel undervalued. The first year I give at least 100% to assess my impact compared to my peers. If I'm leaps and bounds ahead I dial it back _significantly_ until I just barely exceed the expectations set for other people. If they can be there for x years working at such a slow pace, I don't need to make them look considerably worse, especially if my compensation below market rate. Just for reference, so far I've yet to make market rate for a base salary. Things like working from home on Fridays are a perk that does have a monetary and mental value but perks rarely put food on the table by themselves. In an ideal situation, companies would be able to spot your max performance, watch it decline and immediately work with you to rectify it. Maybe you picked up a new meth habit but chances are if you're like us, you're merely adjusting your output to match their perceived monetary input (however truthful that may be). This is not to say that I don't work with my peers to try to enhance their productivity levels. I don't feel I'm a unicorn by any means, I'm just really good at being really lazy and awkwardly enough using proper tooling means I can be both lazy and extremely productive at the same time.

barleymash 9y ago

The difficult scenario is if you really enjoy your job. I work at a company that I have almost nothing to complain about... flexible, great benefits, no micromanagement, challenging and stimulating work. However, I do feel that I am slightly underpaid. It is hard to _really_ know what the environment would be like at a new company if I was willing to walk. I guess the hard thing (for me) is quantifying the importance of the other factors besides money.

Benjammer 9y ago
>It is hard to _really_ know what the environment would be like at a new company if I was willing to walk You should seriously consider interviewing at other companies, where you should directly ask your interviewers questions about these topics, explain why you value them in your current role, and ask how this new company handles the same things. You can find stimulating work at a lot of places if you look hard enough...
frandroid 9y ago
That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never threaten to walk out on a job like that. This is where the article's advice is more useful than the commenters' :)
- BeetleB 9y ago
  >That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never threaten to walk out on a job like that. I used to think that way, but in general, the situation will change. You can have a this awesome job for N years, and then management can change and you'll be miserable. I think it's always better to be in a position where you know you can easily move if things go south. If your current awesome job is also making you grow, then great! If, however, it's too comfortable and you cannot differentiate yourself well, you will not be able to move easily once things go south.
  - frandroid 9y ago
    "If I change the input in your equation, the result changes" !!

anonemouse145 9y ago

Disregard down votes, this is 100% correct. I only add: Read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect. Realize smart people undervalue themselves, and dumb people overvalue themselves. Remember that if only dumb people ask for a promotion, one of them gets it. If you're a good employee, always shoot a little above your worth to compensate. People are whining that it's hard to know your value, that people are timid, and many people can't walk. I agree, and that's why they're underpaid. It's not your boss's fault if you're uninformed, timid, or scared to ask for a raise. Do what you need to do to improve your bargaining position. Then leverage it. Thr vast majority of the supposed "wage gap" is that men feel compelled to climb the hierarchy. They take more risks asking for raises and positions- even if they aren't qualified, and even at the expense of work life balance. You can do that too, if you want the money. Emphasis on if.