6 ms·

This sentence makes me cringe: "There is enough fragmentation among Android handsets to significantly restrict the freedom of software developers." It uses the

by drcode 16y ago

This sentence makes me cringe: "There is enough fragmentation among Android handsets to significantly restrict the freedom of software developers." It uses the word "freedom" in that doublespeak-y way that is used in the "Handmaid's Tale" when they talk about giving citizens "freedom from" social deviants by establishing a totalitarian state.

malkia 16y ago
But it's fragmented, and there are is no TRC (Technical Requirment Certification). For example how the application should deal with built-in keyboard, or without. What should it do when rotated. How different resolution would work. There is also no formal requirments specification - e.g. this app requires builtin keyboard, et.c
- thwarted 16y ago
  But it's fragmented, and there are is no TRC (Technical Requirment Certification). Yeah, but the comment was about the term "freedom", not "fragmentation".
- ergo98 16y ago
  What? Dealing with a physical or a software keyboard is well defined in Android. Dealing with rotation is a foundational element of the system. Dealing with different resolutions is a foundational element of the system. >e.g. this app requires builtin keyboard, et.c Again...what? Android provides EXACTLY this functionality. Gosling lost me when he decided to essentially cover-his-technology-ass with the Android remark. "Fragmentation" in the Android ecosystem is almost entirely simple version fragmentation, and even that is rapidly resolving. On specific handsets there are extremely few device-specific edge conditions, like a peculiar 3D performance profile on some devices. This is nothing like the absolute disaster that J2ME was, where they tried so hard to abstract everything to the absolute lowest of the lowest common denominator, and what was left was simply trash.
  - CrazedGeek 16y ago
    There's a few oddities that come from the custom UIs, which make it kind of annoying if you want to design a good looking, consistent-with-the-rest-of-the-phone experience. Admittedly, this isn't a huge problem, and indeed is only a problem with a few of them (Sense UI, mostly), but since almost every manufacturer has a custom UI, it can be a pain.
    - roel_v 16y ago
      I don't understand this point. I have an HTC Desire with Sense, i downloaded a bunch of apps from the app Market over the last few weeks, and I never noticed any differences in UI between the build-in spps and the ones I downloaded. Have you ever had to make adjustments to your apps to make them look good/OK on, e.g., Sense? What kind of adjustments were they?
      - ergo98 16y ago
        I hold the same questions, both as an Android developer and as a Android app consumer -- Sense plays zero part in my development, and as a user while it changes the home screen and offers some widgets, it does nothing to change individual apps. Nor does Motoblur, or Sony's Rebecca or whatever they call it, or LG's....
  - malkia 16y ago
    Rightfully downvoted. I got carried over. I have the first T-Mobile G1 and I can't update the OS, can't download new apps... That makes me sad :)
illumin8 16y ago
I think he actually makes a good point - remember what James Gosling has been through with the Java/Microsoft scandal. What would happen if Microsoft decided to make their own Android handsets tomorrow, but "embraced and extended" the Dalvik VM to run some special .NET code? If they gained significant marketshare, they could hijack the Android mobile platform as their own, just like they tried to do with Java. I'm not saying they would do that, or even that they should, but I think this is the line of thinking that Gosling is coming from. Java has always had "write once, run anywhere" as it's motto. Android should try to stick to that ideal as well- it would do the platform good.
- jamesbritt 16y ago
  Java has always had "write once, run anywhere" as it's motto. Have you found that to be true? I found it to _often_ be the case, but no assurances; you had to pick wisely. Java has had its own problems with fragmentation, despite the motto. If you're going to allow for the variation and variety needed for robust development and platform progress you have to allow for the risk that not all code will always play nice together. That's life. I'd like to see a Microsoft Android. I've few worries about some heavy-handed market dominance, though, since there are few barriers to entry for anyone else to jump in and try the same thing (unlike what was the case with Java when Microsoft was interested).
  - illumin8 16y ago
    It's a goal, but we all know how goals don't always jive with reality. It would still be nice to take Java code and run it on any server platform I choose. If a project is written well, it can, which is a major win for Java.
- bad_user 16y ago
  remember what James Gosling has been through with the Java/Microsoft scandal Yes, I remember Microsoft releasing the first JVM that did JIT compilation. I also remember them having the only usable IDE for Java at the time. I also remember them wanting to add "delegates" to the standard, with Sun responding with an idiotic reply for all to view here: http://java.sun.com/docs/white/delegates.html http://java.sun.com/docs/white/delegates.html Delegates which are now being added through the back-door in the InvokeDynamic JSR ... oh, the irony. If Java is a standard, then Sun should have let others participate. Imagine if the Javascript standard / trademark was controlled by Microsoft, and they would sue Apple / Mozilla for adding "proprietary" extensions to it. Want to avoid fragmentation ... then don't build cripple-ware.
shasta 16y ago
How is this double speak? If every state in the US had its own standard for gas pumps, and everyone traveling had to maintain a collection of nozzle adapters in their trunk, that would impede freedom of travel. Fragmentation and non-standards hurt freedom under its ordinary meaning.
- jamesbritt 16y ago
  " ... that would impede freedom of travel. " No, it would impede ease or convenience of travel. Not freedom.
  - mikedouglas 16y ago
    OED, 2nd Ed. freedom, n. 8. Of action, activity, etc.: Ease, facility, absence of encumbrance. You may have political beliefs about the utility of positive liberty, but that doesn't mean he's misusing the word.
    - mbreese 16y ago
      True, that is a definition. However, I think that in this circumstance we can all agree that freedom is a loaded word.
      - protomyth 16y ago
        Word are only "loaded" when we try to use a clearly defined word as a label for some movement or political soundbite. Freedom has a very simple meaning that has been appropriated by different groups as a not-so-accurate label for their activities.
    - jamesbritt 16y ago
      "You may have political beliefs about the utility of positive liberty, ..." Ah; this is ideological for you.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]

by drcode 16y ago

malkia 16y ago

But it's fragmented, and there are is no TRC (Technical Requirment Certification). For example how the application should deal with built-in keyboard, or without. What should it do when rotated. How different resolution would work. There is also no formal requirments specification - e.g. this app requires builtin keyboard, et.c

thwarted 16y ago
But it's fragmented, and there are is no TRC (Technical Requirment Certification). Yeah, but the comment was about the term "freedom", not "fragmentation".
ergo98 16y ago
What? Dealing with a physical or a software keyboard is well defined in Android. Dealing with rotation is a foundational element of the system. Dealing with different resolutions is a foundational element of the system. >e.g. this app requires builtin keyboard, et.c Again...what? Android provides EXACTLY this functionality. Gosling lost me when he decided to essentially cover-his-technology-ass with the Android remark. "Fragmentation" in the Android ecosystem is almost entirely simple version fragmentation, and even that is rapidly resolving. On specific handsets there are extremely few device-specific edge conditions, like a peculiar 3D performance profile on some devices. This is nothing like the absolute disaster that J2ME was, where they tried so hard to abstract everything to the absolute lowest of the lowest common denominator, and what was left was simply trash.
- CrazedGeek 16y ago
  There's a few oddities that come from the custom UIs, which make it kind of annoying if you want to design a good looking, consistent-with-the-rest-of-the-phone experience. Admittedly, this isn't a huge problem, and indeed is only a problem with a few of them (Sense UI, mostly), but since almost every manufacturer has a custom UI, it can be a pain.
  - roel_v 16y ago
    I don't understand this point. I have an HTC Desire with Sense, i downloaded a bunch of apps from the app Market over the last few weeks, and I never noticed any differences in UI between the build-in spps and the ones I downloaded. Have you ever had to make adjustments to your apps to make them look good/OK on, e.g., Sense? What kind of adjustments were they?
    - ergo98 16y ago
      I hold the same questions, both as an Android developer and as a Android app consumer -- Sense plays zero part in my development, and as a user while it changes the home screen and offers some widgets, it does nothing to change individual apps. Nor does Motoblur, or Sony's Rebecca or whatever they call it, or LG's....
- malkia 16y ago
  Rightfully downvoted. I got carried over. I have the first T-Mobile G1 and I can't update the OS, can't download new apps... That makes me sad :)

illumin8 16y ago

I think he actually makes a good point - remember what James Gosling has been through with the Java/Microsoft scandal. What would happen if Microsoft decided to make their own Android handsets tomorrow, but "embraced and extended" the Dalvik VM to run some special .NET code? If they gained significant marketshare, they could hijack the Android mobile platform as their own, just like they tried to do with Java. I'm not saying they would do that, or even that they should, but I think this is the line of thinking that Gosling is coming from. Java has always had "write once, run anywhere" as it's motto. Android should try to stick to that ideal as well- it would do the platform good.

jamesbritt 16y ago
Java has always had "write once, run anywhere" as it's motto. Have you found that to be true? I found it to _often_ be the case, but no assurances; you had to pick wisely. Java has had its own problems with fragmentation, despite the motto. If you're going to allow for the variation and variety needed for robust development and platform progress you have to allow for the risk that not all code will always play nice together. That's life. I'd like to see a Microsoft Android. I've few worries about some heavy-handed market dominance, though, since there are few barriers to entry for anyone else to jump in and try the same thing (unlike what was the case with Java when Microsoft was interested).
- illumin8 16y ago
  It's a goal, but we all know how goals don't always jive with reality. It would still be nice to take Java code and run it on any server platform I choose. If a project is written well, it can, which is a major win for Java.
bad_user 16y ago
remember what James Gosling has been through with the Java/Microsoft scandal Yes, I remember Microsoft releasing the first JVM that did JIT compilation. I also remember them having the only usable IDE for Java at the time. I also remember them wanting to add "delegates" to the standard, with Sun responding with an idiotic reply for all to view here: http://java.sun.com/docs/white/delegates.html http://java.sun.com/docs/white/delegates.html Delegates which are now being added through the back-door in the InvokeDynamic JSR ... oh, the irony. If Java is a standard, then Sun should have let others participate. Imagine if the Javascript standard / trademark was controlled by Microsoft, and they would sue Apple / Mozilla for adding "proprietary" extensions to it. Want to avoid fragmentation ... then don't build cripple-ware.

shasta 16y ago

How is this double speak? If every state in the US had its own standard for gas pumps, and everyone traveling had to maintain a collection of nozzle adapters in their trunk, that would impede freedom of travel. Fragmentation and non-standards hurt freedom under its ordinary meaning.

jamesbritt 16y ago
" ... that would impede freedom of travel. " No, it would impede ease or convenience of travel. Not freedom.
- mikedouglas 16y ago
  OED, 2nd Ed. freedom, n. 8. Of action, activity, etc.: Ease, facility, absence of encumbrance. You may have political beliefs about the utility of positive liberty, but that doesn't mean he's misusing the word.
  - mbreese 16y ago
    True, that is a definition. However, I think that in this circumstance we can all agree that freedom is a loaded word.
    - protomyth 16y ago
      Word are only "loaded" when we try to use a clearly defined word as a label for some movement or political soundbite. Freedom has a very simple meaning that has been appropriated by different groups as a not-so-accurate label for their activities.
  - jamesbritt 16y ago
    "You may have political beliefs about the utility of positive liberty, ..." Ah; this is ideological for you.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]