5 ms·

Is this technically a eugenics program?

lucian1900 9y ago
Yes, insofar as it matches the definition. Does it harm anyone to offer advice of this sort? I think not.
jerf 9y ago
Since this is implemented by informing people carrying the recessive genes about each other before marriage or reproduction, it would be a definition of "eugenics" so broad as to fail to match the common denotation of the term that carries the huge connotational baggage. (Note I'm not dealing with dictionary terms here, but how I think people think of it; with such a loaded term here the denotation and connotation becomes harder than usual to separate.) It would not necessarily be an impossible stretching of the term, but as the vast, vast majority of people would not consider this a problematic solution it doesn't seem like it would really provide any advantage, and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice At the risk of touching things one is not supposed to say in this culture - wouldn't it be good to tone down that opprobrium, or at least cleanly separate out the things that are actually evil from things that are not? The connotational baggage carried by the term "eugenics" tend to infect serious discussions around genetic diseases and genetics in general, and people end up equating e.g. permanently curing genetic diseases (by removing them from the gene pool) with mass mutilation or murder of undesirable individuals (which is the evil part of the as-commonly-understood eugenics).
  - jerf 9y ago
    As a kind of metareply to all my repliers, I'd suggest that it would probably be easier to find a new word for the safe stuff than try to un-destroy "eugenics". Just starting off with "Let's try to come to a more nuanced understanding of 'eugenics'" is roughly equivalent to "Let's try to come to a more nuanced understanding of 'Nazi'" (and for once the metaphor isn't even that strained because there is a real, pre-existing relationship there); from a very academic perspective, it is a worthy goal, but nowadays, not even actual-factual academia is willing to be that academic.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Fair enough.
- msla 9y ago
  > and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice. The opprobrium shouldn't attach to "eugenics", it should attach to "forced eugenics". If some people are incapable of making the distinction, well, some people are incapable of making a distinction between male homosexuals and pedophiles, too. There's only so far we can carry an unfounded hatred of an extremely broad concept due to a tiny, distinguishable special case within that concept.
  - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
    I am not sure I understand your analogy (male homosexuals vs pedophiles). Why blending together a sexual preference towards one's own sex, and a preference towards children?
    - msla 9y ago
      It's an analogy founded directly on history. In the past, it was common to not see a distinction between male homosexuality and pedophilia. I'm absolutely certain some people still see the world that way. In short, it doesn't have to make sense, because it's historical fact. To see this in film, watch the Sid Davis classic "Boys Beware": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Beware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Beware > The film equates homosexuals with child molesters and hebephiles, repeatedly describing homosexuality as a mental illness. True to the stereotypes of its time, the gay men in the film have mustaches, sunglasses and/or bow ties. https://archive.org/details/boys_beware https://archive.org/details/boys_beware - Original https://archive.org/details/BoysBewarecolorizedVersion https://archive.org/details/BoysBewarecolorizedVersion - Colorized https://archive.org/details/BoysAware https://archive.org/details/BoysAware - Remake
      - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
        I do not get it. Because in antic Rome it was acceptable (or common) for men to have homosexual relations with young boys you are still making the link between these words today? "heretic" and "science" or "monk" and "psychopathic torturer" are synonyms as well?
- LordKano 9y ago
  One could call this "eugenics" in the same way you could when women disqualify short men as romantic partners for concerns about having short children.
lmkg 9y ago
I believe that it technically is not. The program has no efforts to reduce the number of carriers of the recessive gene. The impact on the 'genetic stock' of the population is minor, if any, and is not the goal of the program. The goal is to change the effect of certain genes, not to remove those genes from the population.
dogma1138 9y ago
It’s a babies not dying a horrible death program. Israel offers quite extensive genetic prescreenings for prospective parents as part of its universal healthcare and not only for its Jewish population. One primary reason for this is that many religious communities within Israel would no opt out for abortions even defects are detected during pregnancy that could adversely affect the fetus or the mother. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19453249/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19453249/

lucian1900 9y ago

Yes, insofar as it matches the definition. Does it harm anyone to offer advice of this sort? I think not.

jerf 9y ago

Since this is implemented by informing people carrying the recessive genes about each other before marriage or reproduction, it would be a definition of "eugenics" so broad as to fail to match the common denotation of the term that carries the huge connotational baggage. (Note I'm not dealing with dictionary terms here, but how I think people think of it; with such a loaded term here the denotation and connotation becomes harder than usual to separate.) It would not necessarily be an impossible stretching of the term, but as the vast, vast majority of people would not consider this a problematic solution it doesn't seem like it would really provide any advantage, and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
> and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice At the risk of touching things one is not supposed to say in this culture - wouldn't it be good to tone down that opprobrium, or at least cleanly separate out the things that are actually evil from things that are not? The connotational baggage carried by the term "eugenics" tend to infect serious discussions around genetic diseases and genetics in general, and people end up equating e.g. permanently curing genetic diseases (by removing them from the gene pool) with mass mutilation or murder of undesirable individuals (which is the evil part of the as-commonly-understood eugenics).
- jerf 9y ago
  As a kind of metareply to all my repliers, I'd suggest that it would probably be easier to find a new word for the safe stuff than try to un-destroy "eugenics". Just starting off with "Let's try to come to a more nuanced understanding of 'eugenics'" is roughly equivalent to "Let's try to come to a more nuanced understanding of 'Nazi'" (and for once the metaphor isn't even that strained because there is a real, pre-existing relationship there); from a very academic perspective, it is a worthy goal, but nowadays, not even actual-factual academia is willing to be that academic.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Fair enough.
msla 9y ago
> and would run the risk of watering down the opprobrium attached to the term "eugenics" by including a thoroughly unobjectionable practice. The opprobrium shouldn't attach to "eugenics", it should attach to "forced eugenics". If some people are incapable of making the distinction, well, some people are incapable of making a distinction between male homosexuals and pedophiles, too. There's only so far we can carry an unfounded hatred of an extremely broad concept due to a tiny, distinguishable special case within that concept.
- BrandoElFollito 9y ago
  I am not sure I understand your analogy (male homosexuals vs pedophiles). Why blending together a sexual preference towards one's own sex, and a preference towards children?
  - msla 9y ago
    It's an analogy founded directly on history. In the past, it was common to not see a distinction between male homosexuality and pedophilia. I'm absolutely certain some people still see the world that way. In short, it doesn't have to make sense, because it's historical fact. To see this in film, watch the Sid Davis classic "Boys Beware": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Beware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Beware > The film equates homosexuals with child molesters and hebephiles, repeatedly describing homosexuality as a mental illness. True to the stereotypes of its time, the gay men in the film have mustaches, sunglasses and/or bow ties. https://archive.org/details/boys_beware https://archive.org/details/boys_beware - Original https://archive.org/details/BoysBewarecolorizedVersion https://archive.org/details/BoysBewarecolorizedVersion - Colorized https://archive.org/details/BoysAware https://archive.org/details/BoysAware - Remake
    - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
      I do not get it. Because in antic Rome it was acceptable (or common) for men to have homosexual relations with young boys you are still making the link between these words today? "heretic" and "science" or "monk" and "psychopathic torturer" are synonyms as well?
LordKano 9y ago
One could call this "eugenics" in the same way you could when women disqualify short men as romantic partners for concerns about having short children.

lmkg 9y ago

I believe that it technically is not. The program has no efforts to reduce the number of carriers of the recessive gene. The impact on the 'genetic stock' of the population is minor, if any, and is not the goal of the program. The goal is to change the effect of certain genes, not to remove those genes from the population.

dogma1138 9y ago

It’s a babies not dying a horrible death program. Israel offers quite extensive genetic prescreenings for prospective parents as part of its universal healthcare and not only for its Jewish population. One primary reason for this is that many religious communities within Israel would no opt out for abortions even defects are detected during pregnancy that could adversely affect the fetus or the mother. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19453249/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19453249/